ADN's being pushed out - page 23

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned... Read More

  1. Visit  carolinapooh profile page
    1
    I hear what you're saying - and I understand it - but it's impressions. There's a huge difference in getting into an AD program and getting into an MS program. And I'm okay as long as I don't know. That's just me.

    Being able to take an x-ray (a valuable job, PLEASE do not misunderstand me - I don't know how to do it) does not equip you with the background to diagnose my medical problems. I'm sorry.x

    Look at it this way - I have some serious ammo the next time I hear some doc moaning on and on about how NPs aren't as prepared as PAs. And I plan on using it.
    OCNRN63 likes this.
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  3. Visit  rndavu729 profile page
    1
    I have my ADN and the program I graduated from did actual clinical rotations with a few simulation labs added in. It just depends on the school you graduate from and the way the programs are set up. It's not an across the board ADN does simulation and BSN does clinicals in clinical setting. BSN graduates have more education. Does it make them superior, not necessarily. Our experiences in our careers as well as in life can make us better nurses. But why not continue an education if possible. It's always enriching and enhancing.
    Nurse_Diane likes this.
  4. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    0
    Quote from rjc729
    I have my ADN and the program I graduated from did actual clinical rotations with a few simulation labs added in. It just depends on the school you graduate from and the way the programs are set up. It's not an across the board ADN does simulation and BSN does clinicals in clinical setting. BSN graduates have more education. Does it make them superior, not necessarily. Our experiences in our careers as well as in life can make us better nurses. But why not continue an education if possible. It's always enriching and enhancing.
    ^This
  5. Visit  carolinapooh profile page
    0
    Just curious - there are programs without real live clinicals? HOW?

    This is part of the problem. Little standardization for degree conferral.

    Edit: Ah - my guess is you mean stuff like Excelsior. But I thought for an ADN with them you had to have hands on experience somewhere in a related field (CNA) or x amount of time of military experience? Just curious.
  6. Visit  LadyFree28 profile page
    1
    @carolinapooh, from the experience of nurses I know who are doing Excelsior, they are nurses who are actively working...these nurses are LPNs going for their RN-over fuve years experience. In my area in my state, I have not heard of any programs that do not have clinicals...I'm wondering where these places are at as well...sounds scary to me...on the other hand, clinicals are what you make it, and there could be plenty who found ways to skirt by...just a thought...
    carolinapooh likes this.
  7. Visit  MrChicagoRN profile page
    0
    Quote from besaangel
    There are other factors to consider. For example, the amount of pre-reqs that are usually required can range upwards of 50+ credits (not included the basic classes one had to take before jumping into Patho, Pharm or Organic Chem) so already you at looking at the graduation requirements for an AS in Biology.
    Another thing to note is the mandatory clinical requirement (often non-volunteer) which is around 2000 hrs to be considered... working FT, thats a little under a year of relevant experience directly dealing with patients. Therefore, most applicants already possess a healthcare degree to meet pre-reqs and clinical experience.

    Lets not talk about the competition to get into an AD PA program because an ICU RN will definitely get in over a PT aide, even though they both possess clinical experience, preference is always given to LPNs and RNs because of their "direct" patient care involvement. Also, because most PA programs are Masters degrees, the AD programs are ridiculously harder to get into (picture that as more applicants vie for PA programs as compared to Med school so its argueably more stringent to get in much less a cheaper AD option )

    Academic Prerequisites

    So you can relax, most applicants are over qualified for the AD PA program and most likely are already entry-level medical professionals i.e. Radiologic and Medical Technologist

    Now as far as the ADNs being pushed out, most hospitals do provide tuition reimbursement so "if" they are requiring this move-up and its doable (minus the cost) it ought to be considered

    I looked up your link. Even though it's offered by a CC, it is a certificate program, not an AD program. According to their information, there's ~30 something SH in science pre-reqs, takes 48 months to complete, and must already have at least 2,000 hours of direct patient care under their belts. Program is also under accreditation probation at this time.
  8. Visit  carolinapooh profile page
    0
    For all that trouble one may as well go to a credentialed MS for a PA-C. I still don't see how that's an AS program - even BS makes more sense to me. If an FNP has to be an MSN - and it should be - how on earth do these programs even exist?? (That's more or less a rhetorical question.)
  9. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    1
    but now that I know there are ASSOCIATE DEGREE PROGRAMS FOR PAs, who are meant by definition to be extensions of doctors (would you want someone with an associate's education medically diagnosing YOUR problems? I surely wouldn't!), I'm giving up hope for our multi-degree problem.
    *** To each their own. I could care less what the degree on the wall says. I only care if they are really good at their job. Back in the day all the PAs who took care of me (in the army) were certificate or AA and they knew their stuff.
    The origional PAs were highly trained, but un-degreed military medics and corpsmen. The idea was a highly trained medic could get out of the service, do a few pre-reqs, attend a year long program and be PAs.

    [but the problem stems from the public's (and yes, the academic's) perception of a two year degree (I don't care how long it took you - if you want to get technical, it took me about seven and a half years to get my BSN, because I have a prior BS, I took about two years of nursing specific prereqs, and then 16 grueling months of a BSN program - an associates is viewed as a two year degree).
    *** I am a two year BSN. Took me a year (well really 9 months) to earn my ADN and another year to earn my BSN. I wouldn't do it again. If I knew then what I knew now I would have skipped the BSN and been a 3 year (3 total years of college post high school) MSN
    I personaly am not very concerned with the public's preception. In my experience I have never noted a distain or low opinion of nurses from my patients or the public. In fact there is evidence that we are held in quite high reguard by the public
    redhead_NURSE98! likes this.
  10. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    0
    Quote from carolinapooh
    For all that trouble one may as well go to a credentialed MS for a PA-C. I still don't see how that's an AS program - even BS makes more sense to me. If an FNP has to be an MSN - and it should be - how on earth do these programs even exist?? (That's more or less a rhetorical question.)
    *** The PAs are just as subject to degree inflation as nursing is. They are just behind us.
  11. Visit  carolinapooh profile page
    0
    The PA program was developed at Duke University and was originally two didactic years, with a design based on the accelerated medical school curriculum used during WWII to get MDs to the front as fast as possible. The very first class was comprised entirely of Navy Corpsmen. It appears, per the ARC-PA website, that the three CC programs (I believe I counted three) are on probation for not meeting accreditation standards at their last reviews. (There are a few uni/college programs in the same position.) I wonder if they're (the two-year programs) about to go away.

    I've never said RNs are held in disdain - I said an associates degree is viewed differently by the public than a bachelors is. It is. I think patients would be surprised if they knew the number of nurses who don't have BSNs. My point isn't about what degree a person has, it's what the standard should be.

    I don't think requiring an MSN for an NP is degree inflation. I think diagnosis and prescribing requires a different level of skill and the MS accurately reflects that ability. In my opinion - and I'll be interested to see research on this in ten years regarding outcomes and patient satisfaction 2/2 the rise in direct entry MSNs over that time period - an advance practice degree is best reserved for someone with a minimum of two years' experience as an RN. We don't get any sort of internship as an NP after graduation like MDs do - there's no supervised period of development and further teaching - and I just feel like there's little experience there and there's been little to no time to hone skills (and I don't mean foleys and the task-oriented aspects, I mean in being able to formulate explanation and reasoning and being able to see the whole picture a patient's condition creates).

    I am a 16 month BSN myself. I took my previous 4 year degree to Duke's ABSN, which is 16 months. (I still technically say my BNS took almost six years, though, since I couldn't do the BSN without the previous BS degree, plus it took me a year to do 12 hours of prereqs.)
  12. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    0
    I've never said RNs are held in disdain -
    *** I know you didn't. I was just making a point that as far as I can see we (RNs) Don't have a public perception problem.

    I said an associates degree is viewed differently by the public than a bachelors is. It is. I think patients would be surprised if they knew the number of nurses who don't have BSNs. My point isn't about what degree a person has, it's what the standard should be.
    *** I don't they give it any thought. In all the years I have been a nurse I can hardly remeber any patient or their family asking me what degree I have.

    I don't think requiring an MSN for an NP is degree inflation.
    *** Neither do I. I think it's a very appropiate terminal degree for APNs. I do think the DNP as entry to practice is degree inflation.

    In my opinion - and I'll be interested to see research on this in ten years regarding outcomes and patient satisfaction 2/2 the rise in direct entry MSNs over that time period - an advance practice degree is best reserved for someone with a minimum of two years' experience as an RN. We don't get any sort of internship as an NP after graduation like MDs do - there's no supervised period of development and further teaching - and I just feel like there's little experience there and there's been little to no time to hone skills (and I don't mean foleys and the task-oriented aspects, I mean in being able to formulate explanation and reasoning and being able to see the whole picture a patient's condition creates).
    *** I agree with you that APNs should have bedside expeience as RNs. However there isn't any evidence that it is benificial. I also think that NPs should have a residency like development period like PAs can and physicians do.

    I am a 16 month BSN myself. I took my previous 4 year degree to Duke's ABSN, which is 16 months. (I still technically say my BNS took almost six years, though, since I couldn't do the BSN without the previous BS degree, plus it took me a year to do 12 hours of prereqs.)
    *** I really think that there is some resentment among traditional BSN grads twords the ADNs. After all they spend a lot of time and money and worked very hard to graduate with their BSN. It must be frusterating for at least some of them to go to work side by side and get paid the same as RNs who took two years and spend well under $10K to become RNs. Especialy since many of those ADNs have gone on to earn BSNs at employer expence. I have had nurses express resentment when they learn of my 9 month ADN program and free one year BSN.
    Just curious, how is Duke's program an accelerated one if you have to go to nursing school for the same number of months as the tradional BSN students? They do four, 4 month semesters for a total of 16 months and the accelerated do 16 months. Sounds the same but without summers off. Here in Wisconsin at the UW the ABSN is a year.
  13. Visit  carolinapooh profile page
    0
    It's designated an ABSN. That's all I know. Probably because traditional programs are technically 24 months (I know - that's always been my arguement) and Duke's is not. We even had more clinical hours than the traditional program up the street does (at the time, we had just over 1100 and the other had 850 - I know because I applied there and that was one of my questions for them).

    It's possibly deemed accelerated because you don't attend Duke for the whole four-year shebang; you have to show up with a BS + whatever you're missing. I think 'accelerated' is a blanket term, really.

    Having done the college game once already, I can tell you the pace was unreal - it certainly felt accelerated even if the calendar said otherwise.
  14. Visit  saminaross profile page
    3
    I have 34 years experience as an RN with the last 17 years working in various types of Intensive Care Units. Prior to that I was in Nursing Management in positions ranging from DON to Supervisor. All of this with an ADN. Now I am going to have to go back to school for a BSN at minimum, MSN at maximum. I have the money to pay for the education. I'm just not sure that it is worth it in the long run. I am being told by a hospital that THEY expect all their ADN's to obtain BSN's within a certain time limit. I have been following the arguments for and against at this site and find them very interesting. I guess what it all comes down to, despite my personal feelings about the ANA, advanced degree nurses, etc., if I want to work, I will have to obtain a BSN and possibly a MSN also to do bedside nursing. Having been a miser all my life and working at times 2-3 jobs at the same time, as I previously said, I have the money to pay for the education. I just have not convinced myself that it will be worth it in the end. The pay will not improve, the way that I am treated/mistreated by management will not change, because I am an older nurse, the hospital will eventually run me off. I saw this happening in the 90's-it isn't something new. Everyone has to decide for themselves what to do. I already have 8 years of college courses. I took them for myself-not for an elitist organization.


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