ADN's being pushed out - page 11

by pammc000

102,499 Views | 649 Comments

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired.... Read More


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    Thanks, avengingspirit1. I do hope the economy improves and job opportunities improve for all nurses. It's harder for experienced nurses to find jobs as well. Those who do best are experienced in specialized units like critical care.

    We had a really interesting thread not too long ago from a nurse who served on a public-private committee in her state looking at whether the state should mandate the BSN for entry to practice. They found that in many cases there wasn't a large difference between some Associates programs and some BSN programs, as there is not one across-the-board curriculum for either degree.

    Right now they are pushing for more Advanced Practice Nurses and the DNP degree which includes a committee to study present Master's programs for the purpose of evaluating what, if any differences there are in programs offered by other healthcare specialties like pharmacy and physical therapy. I wish they would instead focus their attention and efforts into looking at present ADN programs with the goal of integrating them into BSN programs. I recently saw this news item from the state of Virginia. Though it is not an all encompassing solution, it is a welcome step in that direction.

    GW Will Guarantee Admission to Virginia community college Nursing Grads
    Nurse_Diane likes this.
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    Another point. I was just reading t=in Money magazine that acquiring a more advanced degree after age 45 just does not make good financial sense. So, it should not be required unless employers are willing to pay for it. I am 50. I am not going to acquire 10k in debt at this point in my life.
    redhead_NURSE98! likes this.
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    Nurse/56: When I spoke with one of the administrators a few years ago at the ADN program I graduated from in 2004, she told me that since I have a Bachelor's in Business as well as graduate work in education earned prior to being admitted to the nursing program, it should only be a matter of taking a few upper level nursing courses in an RN-BSN Bridge program. But all the programs I researched required anywhere between 30-47 credits at a cost of between $285-$500 per credit. Most of the courses were 3 credits each with 1 or 2 two credit courses thrown in. Depending on the school, with tech fees, book costs and whatever else schools can do to pad the tuition bill, we're talking anywhere between $14,000-$30,000 for something that will serve no other purpose but to increase revenue for these schools and all those affiliated with them. Which, by the way are the very people driving the BSN push.

    Like CrunchRN, I am 50 and to take on that kind of debt on top of my nursing school student loan which I am still paying off, does not make good financial sense. My brother who is an actuary even advised me not to do it. If it was truly about advancing the profession and for the good of patients, and not just about money; there would be much less expensive options for RNs, especially those with prior degrees in other areas, to obtain the almighty BSN. There would also be clinical components included to help a nurse become even a better clinician. I like the idea of possibly integrating ADN with BSN programs to make it feasible for nurses like myself to bridge the gap in a cost effective manner. But I'm not seeing any of this yet. What I'm still seeing is one big money-making racket being perpetuated and driven by elitists who stand to benefit from it.
    gummi bear likes this.
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    Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.
    I do agree that some RN-BSN programs are probably better than others but the bottom line is that they will never make one one a better nurse. The ability to think critically and optimize limited resources to provide optimal care comes from experience and being mentored by nurses with much more experience. I would ask that nurses talk with other nurses who went through a RN-BSN program and ask them if it was worth it. Every nurse I spoke to said it was a big waste of time and money.

    And ADN with another degree in something such as business would have completed over and above the required coursework in a BSN program. Of course the IOM, ANA, AACN, ANCC and state nurse's associations would not consider that a common sense substitute. Number one, many of these people have lived in the fantasy work of academia for so long that common sense has become a diminishing skill for them. Also their goal is to try to force as many nurses as they can to have to run back to school. It is the biggest business racket going today. Employers however may not doubt these people due to being uniformed about nursing education. I have spoken to many nurses and teachers. I invite nurses to do the same as well as read what many nurses are saying about the BSN push; excluding those affiliated with the organizations I mentioned above as well as those affiliated with four year colleges and universities. Most nurses know it's BS. Most teachers know it's BS and soon the general public will know it's BS.
    Szasz_is_Right likes this.
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    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.
    .
    Obviously, I do not know the curricula of the schools in your area ... but in my region NONE of those courses are taught in the ADN programs. Sure, the ADN students get a "taste" of each subject injected here and there within their programs ... but not full courses with real depth.

    As I have said before, in my region there are schools advertising that you can get an ADN in about 15 months after graduating high school (with no pre-req's). It is schools such as those that you should be most concerned about as they are giving the better ADN schools (and graduates) a bad reputation.
    Nurse_Diane and Susie2310 like this.
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    Quote from llg
    Obviously, I do not know the curricula of the schools in your area ... but in my region NONE of those courses are taught in the ADN programs. Sure, the ADN students get a "taste" of each subject injected here and there within their programs ... but not full courses with real depth.

    As I have said before, in my region there are schools advertising that you can get an ADN in about 15 months after graduating high school (with no pre-req's). It is schools such as those that you should be most concerned about as they are giving the better ADN schools (and graduates) a bad reputation.
    To be accredited, ADN programs must contain 90-108 quarter credit hours, or 60-72 semester credits with 30-40 prerequisite credits (which is 2 years of full time for the program and another 2 quarters to year for the pre-reqs).

    http://www.nlnac.org/manuals/NLNACManual2006.pdf
    Last edit by MunoRN on Feb 27, '13 : Reason: added link
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    My hospital seems to be ADN-friendly. We have quite a few nurses with their ADN but we also have quite a few nurses with their BSN.

    We just hired some new nurses with their ADN.
    Szasz_is_Right likes this.
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    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Not sure about the program you attended but I checked every A.S. and Diploma program in the my area and Infomatics, Leadership, Research, and Community Nursing were all a part of every nursing program I reviewed. Statistics as well as other math courses along with the humanities, English comp., art and basic science courses were either in the program or were required as per-requisites.
    I do agree that some RN-BSN programs are probably better than others but the bottom line is that they will never make one one a better nurse. The ability to think critically and optimize limited resources to provide optimal care comes from experience and being mentored by nurses with much more experience. I would ask that nurses talk with other nurses who went through a RN-BSN program and ask them if it was worth it. Every nurse I spoke to said it was a big waste of time and money.

    And ADN with another degree in something such as business would have completed over and above the required coursework in a BSN program. Of course the IOM, ANA, AACN, ANCC and state nurse's associations would not consider that a common sense substitute. Number one, many of these people have lived in the fantasy work of academia for so long that common sense has become a diminishing skill for them. Also their goal is to try to force as many nurses as they can to have to run back to school. It is the biggest business racket going today. Employers however may not doubt these people due to being uniformed about nursing education. I have spoken to many nurses and teachers. I invite nurses to do the same as well as read what many nurses are saying about the BSN push; excluding those affiliated with the organizations I mentioned above as well as those affiliated with four year colleges and universities. Most nurses know it's BS. Most teachers know it's BS and soon the general public will know it's BS.
    You seem to have a problem with hearing facts that do not support your point of view. It is presumptious of you to say that RN-BSN will never make one a better nurse. Maybe you close your mind to applying new knowledge, but not everyone does. I can assure you that completing RN-BSN did make me a "better nurse" and I know that others have the same experience. I am a nurse that went through an RN-BSN program, and it did make me a better nurse. I'm sorry if that isn't true for everyone. Of course one learns on the job.

    Again, an ADN with a degree in business, etc., would not have completed the requirement for RN-BSN for the reasons I stated in my earlier reply to you that you ignore. I will state the reasons again: Public health nursing course that renders one eligible to apply to the State Board of Registered Nursing for a public health certificate - necessary for certain jobs. Would you like to argue that fact? Did your business course teach you public health nursing? Advanced health asssessment, above and beyond what I was taught in my accredited ADN program; nursing research course; community health practicum - did your business course or ADN provide a practicum in community health? College statistics - have you taken statistics? If not, when someone throws statistics at you how can you critically appraise what they are saying?

    You are confusing your emotions about having to go back for a BSN with facts. By all means say you think RN-BSN is a waste of money. Just don't try to twist that into generalizing about the value of RN-BSN in nursing practice when you haven't even taken the RN-BSN coursework in a decent program.
    Last edit by Susie2310 on Feb 27, '13
    Nurse_Diane and llg like this.
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    Quote from MunoRN
    To be accredited, ADN programs must contain 90-108 quarter credit hours, or 60-72 semester credits with 30-40 prerequisite credits (which is 2 years of full time for the program and another 2 quarters to year for the pre-reqs).

    http://www.nlnac.org/manuals/NLNACManual2006.pdf
    I never said that the shorter programs are accredited by NLNAC. I just said they exist and that they are legal. There are lots of RN's out there practicing nursing who graduated from non-accredited programs. And there are lots of nursing students paying really big bucks to attend such "quickie" programs. As I said in my earlier post, we have several ADN programs in my region that are less than 2 years long -- at least one advertising it's program is only 15 months long, with no pre-req's. (And I have seen their brochure and talked with their faculty. They ARE that quick.)

    That's sad. And as I said, I believe the people who should be leading the fight to shut those programs down are the ADN grads who went to the better-quality programs -- because their ADN's are getting their reputations dragged down by these programs.

    Similarly, there are some atrocious BSN completion programs (many of them online, but not all) that are so concerned about being "easy and convenient" for the student that they have substantially lowered their academic standards. They want the students' money, so they make an easy program that provides little education. They give BSN programs a bad name as their graduates say they "didn't learn much of value" in their programs. (What do you expect when you chose the program because it was the easiest to complete? -- but that's a whole other issue.)

    But thanks for posting the information about the NLNAC standards. Some people may find it helpful. It gives them something to use as a standard when comparing their own local programs. Every prospective student should have that information to help them identify the bad programs out there.
    Last edit by llg on Mar 1, '13
    subee and redhead_NURSE98! like this.
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    It has been my experience that BSN nurses as a group display more professionalism and better critical thinking than ADN nurses. However, I have also had the pleasure of working with a few ADNs and LPNs who were some of the best nurses I've ever worked with. I believe this has more to do with their personalities than their nursing programs. In general, I would say the ADN program has outlived its original purpose. It's time to close those programs down and bring nursing in line with the other health professions. There are too many paths into nursing and it is confusing to the public and our peers in medicine and therapy. Healthcare is becoming more complex every day, we need to ensure the coming ranks are equipped with the basic critical thinking skills that come with a BS. As far as pushing a seasoned and valued ADN out of their job to replace them with an inexperienced BSN- well that does seem silly and counterproductive. I do feel bad for the seasoned ADNs who are caught in the middle. It seems that a competency exam could be easily constructed as a tool for "grandfathering in" the existing ADNs without forcing them all back to school, especially for the older nurses for whom the cost-benefit would not be advantageous.
    mya612 likes this.


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