ADN vs. BSN for Entry Level Nursing - page 5

The new push is for all nurses to be baccalaureate prepared, eliminating the 2 year associate degree program. Given the current and future nursing shortage, what is your opinion?... Read More

  1. Visit  sunnyjohn profile page
    0
    Good post T.

    This should be on the bulletin board of every nurses station, work mailbox and e-mail inbox or every nurse in the country.


    In the words of the kids I tutor, "Don't hate, participate!"
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  3. Visit  Kelly_the_Great profile page
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    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    While I agree with this and understand that it's not all about the ADN/BSN debate, most of those factors exist because WE are a divided bunch.

    And, from an activism point of view (this debate doesn't carry as much to the actual trenches), this is one of the KEY issues that divide us.

    So, even though a specific consensus on THIS issue might not affect other factors at play, a general consensus among nurses, that this issue helps to fracture, COULD be used as a greater forum to address many of the factors in play, not just this one.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    As always, well said, Timothy...:bowingpur :bowingpur :bowingpur

    United we stand, divided we fall...
  4. Visit  Jami_Jared profile page
    0
    Quote from burn out
    I can't believe such a hot topic and no one has responded yet. Personally I don't think we should let the nursing shortage concern us or affect us. We should not lower the standards of nursing to make more warm bodies eligible to work as a RN. I think if we are going to be Professionals we need to have a professional entry level of a BSN ( not a 2 year ADN with a bs in accounting). The first question being do we want to be considered professionals? If we do I believe that all current RN's should be grandfathered in that lack the BSN level and nationwide entry level should be the same-after all we all take the same test so why not uniform entry levels everywhere. I beleive this is the only way to advance nursing and
    get the respect from the doctors that we are all entitled to.

    I love the way you think!!! I agree with you totally. There needs to be professional standards!
  5. Visit  Jami_Jared profile page
    0
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    I posted this in another thread and thought it deserved its own:

    A 3-5 dollar an hour differential for BSN will bring ALL RNs along.

    See, it's a difference in perspective. The debate is so heated because it's been so polarized for so long when what was needed all along was a consensus.

    Today's RN, regardless of entry, is a PROFESSIONAL NURSE, and each of us is entitled, as primary stakeholders, to claim that professionalism.

    The question becomes, where do we want to go, AS A GROUP.

    For far too long, BSN's have used the issue as a kind of intellectual whipping post: MY DEGREE IS BETTER THEN YOURS.

    And ADNs have been rightly 'insulted' and, as a result, reactionary: same pay for same work.

    Reality is in the middle. In fact, after years of trying to set up a 'differentiation of practice', there is little evidence that the differences in degrees merits such a differentiation.

    AND IN FACT, education DOES matter.

    The question is: where do we want to be as a group. If you are a BSN, there is some merit to the argument that a Bach standard for nursing will move us along in pay and respect

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    It all amounts to the fact that you attended a TECHNICAL college which is a lesser degree, and Bachelor's prepared attend a University which equals a PROFESSIONAL degree. If it was considered an equal degree than they would both have the same name. It is sad that 2 degrees take the same board.s.. and I don't agree with it. It is also sad that 2 different degrees equal the same pay....and I also don't agree with that. I know that in a man's profession ...example business, engineering, etc. the same pay would never be acceptable for a lesser degree...and there aren't 2 year degrees or associates degrees in those fields that pay the same, and take the same boards. In those types of fields there is standards for Professionalism and to be unified we need to stop cutting the corners and taking the easy way out and buff up our minimum requirements to all hold Bachelor's degrees. I do agree with you on finding common ground but by downplaying a higher level of education it is hard to agree with your thoughts.
    Last edit by Tweety on Feb 28, '07 : Reason: flame removed - quote shortened for brevity
  6. Visit  RNsRWe profile page
    0
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    It all amounts to the fact that you attended a TECHNICAL college which is a lesser degree, and Bachelor's prepared attend a University which equals a PROFESSIONAL degree. If it was considered an equal degree than they would both have the same name.
    While the two degrees in question are obviously not equal, and therefore not using the same name, the LICENSE which we are all speaking of DOES bear the same name: Registered Professional Nurse. Not "Registered Technical Nurse" and Registered Professional Nurse", the latter deemed worthy only for those who have a 4-year degree.

    Despite your use of the term "technical college", which displays your lack of understanding of most 2-year colleges within the State University system, your RN license is equivalent to anyone with an ASN-RN. Not the DEGREE, but the license. You previously posted that your State does not have 2-year nursing programs in their schools, and that is likely the reason for your lack of understanding of just what those schools are and do.

    Anyone who holds such an RN is completely entitled to use the term PROFESSIONAL, as the State bestows that title; it is not subjective, and not for you to dismiss.
    Last edit by Tweety on Mar 1, '07 : Reason: edited
  7. Visit  Jami_Jared profile page
    0
    Professional by definition has meant holding a Bachelors! It doesn't mean that nurses; LPN, ASN, ADN can't act like a professional. But having a "Professional" degree constitutes attending a university or 4 year college. I don't make the rules thats just the way it is in society and that is the bare requirements. I do not lack understanding of what ASN-RN schools are or what they do. Two year colleges are not part of a state university system in any state that is why they are called community college, technical institutions...they have a different name for a reason. Universities are held with higher regard nation wide for every degree not just in nursing that is why it costs more to attend there and people recieve well - rounded degrees. We should not put BSN's down for having higher education!! The problem is that ASN - nurses think they are equal just because they pass the same boarding. And that does lead to inner confusion. But take the time to really think about what is being said here. You are trying to pass off that attending less college but passing the sames boards really means that things are equal. Who are we trying to fool here. Our inner selves ?? I don't think so.
  8. Visit  CrunchRN profile page
    0
    Beating this dead horse again huh?

    Just give me a nurse that knows what she is doing, will be assertive on my behalf when needed, and has a heart, and washes her hands! That is the ideal nurse to me if I were a patient.
  9. Visit  ZASHAGALKA profile page
    0
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    Professional by definition has meant holding a Bachelors! It doesn't mean that nurses; LPN, ASN, ADN can't act like a professional. But having a "Professional" degree constitutes attending a university or 4 year college. I don't make the rules thats just the way it is in society and that is the bare requirements.
    By whose definition?

    You are seeking to appeal to an authority that doesn't exist, the all inclusive, 'they'. 'Hey, I didn't make the rules; THEY made the rules."

    Who exactly, is that? Are you referring to the propaganda put out by most BSN programs?

    I advocate a minimum entry to practice. Fortunately, professional nursing has JUST such a standard: ADN. Congrats on EXCEEDING minimum entry.

    I will say this, the attitude of putting down ADNs to get to a BSN standard has been tried and failed for 40 yrs. It will fail for another 40 yrs. Only when all stakeholders are invested in the process will nursing ever move forward on this issue. It doesn't matter how great your idea is if you have a losing argument (and I submit that a gradual move to BSN entry IS a good idea). Putting down your peers is a losing argument. It's been a losing argument in this debate for decades.

    My point is valid - it is THIS argument, that ADNs are inferior products, that holds back BSN entry, not ADNs. It is this argument that creates the defensiveness that deadlocks this issue.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 28, '07
  10. Visit  zilla704 profile page
    0
    I attend a University in NC that has a 4 year and 2 year nursing program. They are really pushing the ASN program to go as far as offering an ASN to MSN track this year. It is ASN to MSN in 24 months. So my thinking is I can work with an ASN while I finish the MSN track. The MSN track seems to be a lot of theory and major emphasis on community nursing and education. So, if you toss out management opportunities, educators, etc, what makes a BSN any better than an ASN in the realm of patient care?

    I apologize if I'm asking questions already answered. I'm new to the site and midway through my 1st semester of clinicals and Nursing Fundamentals. Thanks!
  11. Visit  Tweety profile page
    0
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    Professional by definition has meant holding a Bachelors! It doesn't mean that nurses; LPN, ASN, ADN can't act like a professional. But having a "Professional" degree constitutes attending a university or 4 year college.


    This is true. By definition Nursing has not yet reached the status of a "profession". People always take this to mean that people think they don't behave professionally.

    The professional designation has nothing to do with behavior, but other definitions, one of which is, as you say, it's members hold a Baccalaurreate degree.
    Last edit by Tweety on Feb 28, '07
  12. Visit  Tweety profile page
    0
    Quote from zilla704
    I attend a University in NC that has a 4 year and 2 year nursing program. They are really pushing the ASN program to go as far as offering an ASN to MSN track this year. It is ASN to MSN in 24 months. So my thinking is I can work with an ASN while I finish the MSN track. The MSN track seems to be a lot of theory and major emphasis on community nursing and education. So, if you toss out management opportunities, educators, etc, what makes a BSN any better than an ASN in the realm of patient care?

    I apologize if I'm asking questions already answered. I'm new to the site and midway through my 1st semester of clinicals and Nursing Fundamentals. Thanks!

    I precept both ADNs and BSNs new grads, and from my experience, and I understand it might be different regionally, there isn't much difference in entry level bedside practice and knowledge. Both are pretty green and need an equal amount of orientation. Some are better than others, but it's not degree related, but personality related in my experience.

    I have heard people say that BSNs don't get as much clinical time as ADNs and the BSN were more paperwork and management focused and performed more poorly in the clinical setting after graduation. This is definately not true around here.
    Last edit by Tweety on Feb 28, '07
  13. Visit  ZASHAGALKA profile page
    0
    Quote from Tweety
    This is true. By definition Nursing has not yet reached the status of a "profession". People always take this to mean that people think they don't behave professionally.

    The professional designation has nothing to do with behavior, but other definitions, one of which is, as you say, it's members hold a Baccalaurreate degree.
    I disagree. That is your definition of a profession. It is not necessarily the only or even the most prominent view of a profession. For example, on the other extreme, no MD would consider holding only a bach degree as definitive of their profession.

    I will say this, a common definition of a profession is that it contains a unique body of knowledge and a protection against practice by those that do not prove themselves to have attained that body of knowledge. In that respect, nursing certainly qualifies.

    To me, this argument, that BSN is needed to qualify as a profession is a non-starter. In effect, it gives those at our power tables that don't hold nursing as a profession ammunition. The ammunition is NOT a lack of a bach degree, but a lack of consensus, among ourselves, of our true power.

    If WE don't consider ourselves to be a profession, who will? More to the point, if we don't consider ourselves as professional, how will a piece of paper change that? The underlying assertion is that that piece of paper grants us our own credibility to claim professional status. But there is sufficient qualities in nursing now to claim that status. If we can't do so now, I'm dubious that a piece of paper will change matters much.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Mar 1, '07
  14. Visit  lvs2nrs3535 profile page
    0
    I must MUST chime in with my little bitty two cents, for all it is worth. I am an ADN grad. My clinicals were great, I learned soo much, but I was in part responsible for that. I was very agressive in pursuing learning opportunites, got as much hands on clinical experience as possible. I feel very prepared to take on my job, (which I have, as a rehab nurse, and I am loving it!)
    I will be working, albeit slowly, towards my BSN. I have classmates who graduated with me and are awesome new nurses. There are also a couple I would not let wipe my behind. I think grouping all nurses into categories is counter-productive. The nurse is the one who decides how much to take out of the education, and to go after the knowledge, or wait around to be spoon fed. I have seen BSN nurses who seem lost, and LPN's who know more than I do, and sometimes more than the BSN charge nurse. And of course, I have seen it the other way around. This profession, (and it is one, I refuse to argue that point!) is difficult. But just like any other, it is what the individual brings to the table that makes the difference. This arguement is not truly solvable, because both sides are right. In the meantime, I will continue with my education, and continue practicing as what the title shows, A REGISTERED NURSE. I take pride in my education, I learn something new every day at my career, and I am happy with the route I chose.
    Just my little 2 pennies for the day.
    KristyBRN


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