Paleo/Primal Diet? - page 3

by 7student7

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Does anyone have any experience with the Paleo diet? Like what you'd see on Mark's Daily Apple or PaNu - PāNu Blog . Did anyone have a positive (or negative) experience with it? Do you see any major flaws? Is this something you... Read More


  1. 0
    Quote from mingez
    And your maturity is revealed.

    Make fun, condescend, and blow me off as a conspiracy theorist if you must. I can't think for you, but clearly the ADA does. Research Pubmed. Read the peer-reviewed literature and please dont just read the abstracts.

    Also, in response to your hoping I know what a "Balanced diet" is....I point you here: Rhetorical Question Definition. It might not be peer-reviewed, but it'll do.
    Having done my fair share of research I know that one or two studies, especially case studies, does not prove efficacy. There has to be many, many studies. Then there has to be statistical analysis to show a statistically significant correlation along with a meta-analysis of the studies.

    One or two studies means squat. I bet I could find you a study that says putting Jolly Ranchers in your butt will make you run faster. There has to be significant corresponding studies.

    In case you have never subscribed to research journals, there are hours and hours of reading worth of research put out every day on every subject. I subscribe to only a select few journals such as the JIN and I am up to my ears in reading. Professional healthcare associations, especially nursing associations, help professionals such as myself to digest all the material. I don't know about you but I simply do not have 28 hours a day to read nothing but research.

    Can you name a single professional healthcare association that supports the pale diet?
    Last edit by Asystole RN on Feb 12, '12
  2. 2
    So I give my patients advice on diets, mostly because I find medicine to be woefully short in this area. Plus I happend to know that the ADA recommendations are wrong. Why? Well because look around you! Obesity rates and diabetes have increased a great deal since the recommendations went from "meat and potatoes" to "bread and potatoes". From what I've read nothing good comes from a diet that is mostly grains and veggies, but a lot of good comes from a diet that is mostly fat, protien's and veggies. Grains are the same as sugar even the complex carbohydrates are nothing more than sugar.

    The best resources that I give patients on diets are the movie FAT HEAD, the books WHY WE GET FAT: AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT by Gary Taubes, and THE BLUE ZONES by Dan Buettner. I also suggest that the patient watch SUPERSIZE ME before they watch FAT HEAD so that they can get a good global picture of the arguments.

    With all that being said, every nurse that stated it is not our place to advise on diets are CORRECT! This sort of diet counseling is something that you can get in trouble for doing because nutrition is not the nurse's place in medicine. That is for the dietician or nutritionist.

    Do I believe that half of the medical advice we give to our patients is good? No. I believe that the medical field is deluded with so much rampant pharmaceutical, insurance, religious, and political endorsed ******** these days that no one can see the light of day. Research to often says what the drug maker, insurance provider, religious fanatic, or politician wants it to say. If you care to give good advice to your patients it will involve a lot of research on your part to weed out the bias research from the good ones. If you do all this work and are giving your patients good information but not the advice that the medical field says you should be giving, well just be prepared to lose your job. What is right is in accordance to who is paying you, never forget that.
    nursbrooklyn and mingez like this.
  3. 2
    Quote from KalipsoRed21
    So I give my patients advice on diets, mostly because I find medicine to be woefully short in this area. Plus I happend to know that the ADA recommendations are wrong. Why? Well because look around you! Obesity rates and diabetes have increased a great deal since the recommendations went from "meat and potatoes" to "bread and potatoes". From what I've read nothing good comes from a diet that is mostly grains and veggies, but a lot of good comes from a diet that is mostly fat, protien's and veggies. Grains are the same as sugar even the complex carbohydrates are nothing more than sugar.

    The best resources that I give patients on diets are the movie FAT HEAD, the books WHY WE GET FAT: AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT by Gary Taubes, and THE BLUE ZONES by Dan Buettner. I also suggest that the patient watch SUPERSIZE ME before they watch FAT HEAD so that they can get a good global picture of the arguments.

    With all that being said, every nurse that stated it is not our place to advise on diets are CORRECT! This sort of diet counseling is something that you can get in trouble for doing because nutrition is not the nurse's place in medicine. That is for the dietician or nutritionist.

    Do I believe that half of the medical advice we give to our patients is good? No. I believe that the medical field is deluded with so much rampant pharmaceutical, insurance, religious, and political endorsed ******** these days that no one can see the light of day. Research to often says what the drug maker, insurance provider, religious fanatic, or politician wants it to say. If you care to give good advice to your patients it will involve a lot of research on your part to weed out the bias research from the good ones. If you do all this work and are giving your patients good information but not the advice that the medical field says you should be giving, well just be prepared to lose your job. What is right is in accordance to who is paying you, never forget that.
    I am confused, so you admit that you advise patients on diet yet state that it is not your place to do so in another paragraph?

    Are you really blaming the obesity epidemic on the American Diabetes Association??? Did not know their influence was that strong, wow. Are you sure that following the diet and recommendations causes obesity or rather not following their diet and recommendations? Hmmmm...

    Since you believe that much of our profession is based off of a conspiracy at the hands of the religious corporations can you cite us some examples? What recommendation by what professional healthcare organization is a direct result of conspiracy? Which standard of practice was developed to further the goals of the greedy corporation?

    Keep in mind the differences of nursing, medicine, and healthcare. Those terms are not interchangeable and there are significant differences in the practice.
  4. 3
    Quote from asystole rn
    having done my fair share of research i know that one or two studies, especially case studies, does not prove efficacy. there has to be many, many studies. then there has to be statistical analysis to show a statistically significant correlation along with a meta-analysis of the studies.
    agreed. but nobody ever said there was just "one or two" studies. meta-analysis of the studies works, however, when the body of the research is founded on bunk principles (such as the lipid hypothesis, or the china study) with no question as to whether those founding principles are incorrect, meta-analysis results are either flawed or irrelevant. read "good calories bad calories" for a more eloquent argument as to how and why this happend in nutrition.

    Quote from asystole rn
    one or two studies means squat. i bet i could find you a study that says putting jolly ranchers in your butt will make you run faster. there has to be significant corresponding studies.
    that's a lazy argument.
    the reasoning here is about reading and critically thinking about the material. this is why one must go beyond the abstract.

    Quote from asystole rn
    in case you have never subscribed to research journals, there are hours and hours of reading worth of research put out every day on every subject. i subscribe to only a select few journals such as the jin and i am up to my ears in reading. professional healthcare associations, especially nursing associations, help professionals such as myself to digest all the material. i don't know about you but i simply do not have 28 hours a day to read nothing but research.
    yet, you have time to argue with me on allnurses at 1 am in the morning? clearly you're swamped. you have time to debate, but no time to educate yourself about the opposite side of the argument.
    and i'm confused, you cite not having educated yourself or "digested" the material, yet you are perfectly comfortable telling people that the are wrong about their nutritional philosophy? interesting.

    Quote from asystole rn
    can you name a single professional healthcare association that supports the pale diet?
    is that your main argument? i would think that as a nurse you'd opt to critically think about things on occasion rather than just regurgitate dogma. the current lowfat, high carb approach the ada recommends has become part of the zeitgeist. it's an understood "fact," which is never questioned by people who don't need to think about it. but there is a lot of history there which i can only tell you read up about. but conveniently, you have no time for this; with all your allnurses postings and professional endeavors and all.

    this is the same organization that recommended margarine, trans-fats, saccharine, without any evidence-based research. zero. they can, and have been wrong.

    Quote from asystole rn
    are you really blaming the obesity epidemic on the american diabetes association??? did not know their influence was that strong, wow. are you sure that following the diet and recommendations causes obesity or rather not following their diet and recommendations? hmmmm...
    is that how you selectively interpreted kalipso's post? give me a break. talk about being captious in argument. kalipso was pointing out, not that the ada is "to blame" but rather that the evidence that the current recommendations are ineffective are all around us. the causes are much more complex obviously, but instead you choose to belittle kalipso's take on the matter with condescending rhetoric.

    and ps, kalipso was talking about the american dietetic association.

    ------------------------------
    in the end, i'm not asking you to buy in to the idea of an ancestral or evolutionary based way of eating, i'm just suggesting you look in to it. research, then refute, that's typically the order things are done. if one has no basis for their argument other than "governing body 'x' says so," then one has no argument at all.
    Last edit by mingez on Feb 12, '12
    nursbrooklyn, KalipsoRed21, and morte like this.
  5. 0
    I am surprised that a new grad nurse was able to read and digest so many studies, usually this takes years of dedicated studies but you manage to refute thousands of years worth of study and hundreds of thousands of years worth of experience that is represent in the AMA, ADA etc...

    Can you cite me a single professional healthcare organization that supports the pale diet?

    Can you cite a single example as to how there is a conspiracy by these professional organizations that is attempting to hold down the paleo diet?


    I've been told time to time that I am arrogant but I have never had the hubris to declare that the AMA, ADA, NANP, and IAACN simply does not know what they are talking about. I want to go to your nursing school, to teach enough nutrition to know more than whole professional groups of MDs and RDs in a 1 semester class is amazing!
  6. 0
    I will make this real easy for everyone, I have some time on my hands here.

    Cite me a single meta-analysis or other literature statistical analysis review that shows a correlation of 0.3 or greater of a patient population greater than 1,000 that demonstrates that the paleo diet does all the wonderful things it is claimed to do.

    A book, a clinic, a movie, a friends word, a .com website, and a poster above a urinal do not work. Cite me the studies.
  7. 0
    i'll make this real simple for you.



    what you are asking has never been done for any diet...not even the current recommendations by the ada. the largest rct study for a diet was 827 and that was the "
    diogenes study." (pubmed link) and that favored a paleo macronutrient ratio. so already, you're asking me to show you something that the us government has never succeeded in doing due to the sheer cost! and that, my friend, is the problem!

    i will, however, site many studies that show correlation to aspects of the diet (and some are paleo specific). such as ketogenic diets, such as high fat low carb, saturated fats effect on gut flora, cancer, heart disease, gluten intolerance, intestinal permeability, gut dysbiosis, leptin disregualtion, insulin resistance, correlations that disprove the current recommendations, etc. because that's all that exists either for or against all diets be they sad, ada, paleo, weston a. price, atkins, whatever.



    [color=#646464]1. frassetto la, schloetter m, mietus-synder m, morris rc, jr., sebastian a: metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet. eur j clin nutr 2009.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]2. jönsson t, granfeldt y, ahrén b, branell uc, pålsson g, hansson a, söderström m, lindeberg s. beneficial effects of a paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study. cardiovasc diabetol. 2009;8:35
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]3. jonsson t, granfeldt y, erlanson-albertsson c, ahren b, lindeberg s. a paleolithic diet is more satiating per calorie than a mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischemic heart disease. nutr metab (lond). 2010 nov 30;7(1):85
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]4. jonsson t, ahren b, pacini g, sundler f, wierup n, steen s, sjoberg t, ugander m, frostegard j, goransson lindeberg s: a paleolithic diet confers higher insulin sensitivity, lower c-reactive protein and lower blood pressure than a cereal-based diet in domestic pigs. nutr metab (lond) 2006, 3:39.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]5. lindeberg s, jonsson t, granfeldt y, borgstrand e, soffman j, sjostrom k, ahren b: a palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease. diabetologia 2007, 50(9):1795-1807.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]6. o’dea k: marked improvement in carbohydrate and lipid metabolism in diabetic australian aborigines after temporary reversion to traditional lifestyle. diabetes 1984, 33(6):596-603.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]7. osterdahl m, kocturk t, koochek a, wandell pe: effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers. eur j clin nutr 2008, 62(5):682-685.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]8. larsen tm, dalskov sm, van baak m, jebb sa, papadaki a, pfeiffer af, martinez ja, handjieva-darlenska t, kunešová m, pihlsgård m, stender s, holst c, saris wh, astrup a; diet, obesity, and genes (diogenes) project. diets with high or low protein content and glycemic index for weight-loss maintenance. n engl j med. 2010 nov 25;363(22):2102-13
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]9. papadaki a, linardakis m, larsen tm, van baak ma, lindroos ak, pfeiffer af, martinez ja, handjieva-darlenska t, kunesová m, holst c, astrup a, saris wh, kafatos a; diogenes study group. the effect of protein and glycemic index on children’s body composition: the diogenes randomized study. pediatrics. 2010 nov;126(5):e1143-52
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]10. cordain l. saturated fat consumption in ancestral human diets: implications for contemporary intakes. in: phytochemicals, nutrient-gene interactions, meskin ms, bidlack wr, randolph rk (eds.), crc press (taylor & francis group), 2006, pp. 115-126.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]11. cordain l, miller jb, eaton sb, mann n, holt sh, speth jd. plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets.am j clin nutr. 2000 mar;71(3):682-92.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]12. cordain l. the nutritional characteristics of a contemporary diet based upon paleolithic food groups. j am nutraceut assoc 2002; 5:15-24.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]13. cordain l, eaton sb, sebastian a, mann n, lindeberg s, watkins ba, o’keefe jh, brand-miller j. origins and evolution of the western diet: health implications for the 21st century. am j clin nutr. 2005 feb;81(2):341-54.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]14. kuipers rs, luxwolda mf, dijck-brouwer da, eaton sb, crawford ma, cordain l, muskiet fa. estimated macronutrient and fatty acid intakes from an east african paleolithic diet. br j nutr. 2010 dec;104(11):1666-87.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]15. ramsden ce, faurot kr, carrera-bastos p, cordain l, de lorgeril m, sperling ls.dietary fat quality and coronary heart disease prevention: a unified theory based on evolutionary, historical, global, and modern perspectives. curr treat options cardiovasc med. 2009 aug;11(4):289-301.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]16. cordain l, eaton sb, miller jb, mann n, hill k. the paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: meat-based, yet non-atherogenic. eur j clin nutr. 2002 mar;56 suppl 1:s42-52
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]17. cordain l, watkins ba, florant gl, kelher m, rogers l, li y. fatty acid analysis of wild ruminant tissues: evolutionary implications for reducing diet-related chronic disease. eur j clin nutr. 2002 mar;56(3):181-91
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    [color=#646464]18. carrera-bastos p, fontes villalba m, o’keefe jh, lindeberg s, cordain l. the western diet and lifestyle and diseases of civilization. res rep clin cardiol 2011; 2: 215-235.
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    [color=#646464]19. hoppe c, mølgaard c, vaag a, barkholt v, michaelsen kf. high intakes of milk, but not meat, increase s-insulin and insulin resistance in 8-year-old boys. eur j clin nutr. 2005 mar;59(3):393-8.
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    [color=#646464]20. micha r, wallace sk, mozaffarian d. red and processed meat consumption and risk of incident coronary heart disease, stroke, and diabetes mellitus: a systematic review and meta-analysis. circulation. 2010 jun 1;121(21):2271-83
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    [color=#646464]21. micha r, mozaffarian d. saturated fat and cardiometabolic risk factors, coronary heart disease, stroke, and diabetes: a fresh look at the evidence. lipids. 2010 oct;45(10):893-905. epub 2010 mar 31.
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    [color=#646464]22. mozaffarian d, micha r, wallace s. effects on coronary heart disease of increasing polyunsaturated fat in place of saturated fat: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. plos med. 2010 mar 23;7(3):e1000252.
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    [color=#646464]23. siri-tarino pw, sun q, hu fb, krauss rm. saturated fatty acids and risk of coronary heart disease: modulation by replacement nutrients. curr atheroscler rep. 2010 nov;12(6):384-90.
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    [color=#646464]24. siri-tarino pw, sun q, hu fb, krauss rm. saturated fat, carbohydrate, and cardiovascular disease. am j clin nutr. 2010 mar;91(3):502-9
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    [color=#646464]25. siri-tarino pw, sun q, hu fb, krauss rm. meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease. am j clin nutr. 2010 mar;91(3):535-46


  8. 0
    Quote from mingez
    i'll make this real simple for you.



    what you are asking has never been done for any diet...not even the current recommendations by the ada. the largest rct study for a diet was 827 and that was the "
    diogenes study." (pubmed link) and that favored a paleo macronutrient ratio. so already, you're asking me to show you something that the us government has never succeeded in doing due to the sheer cost! and that, my friend, is the problem!

    i will, however, site many studies that show correlation to aspects of the diet (and some are paleo specific). such as ketogenic diets, such as high fat low carb, saturated fats effect on gut flora, cancer, heart disease, gluten intolerance, intestinal permeability, gut dysbiosis, leptin disregualtion, insulin resistance, correlations that disprove the current recommendations, etc. because that's all that exists either for or against all diets be they sad, ada, paleo, weston a. price, atkins, whatever.

    ...
    really? thats funny because after 4 seconds of searching i located a meta-analysis on the mediterranean diet that encompassed 1.5 million study subjects.

    sofi, f., cesari, f., abbate, r., gensini, g.f., casini, a. (2008). adherence to mediterranean diet and health status: meta-analysis. retrieved from adherence to mediterranean diet and health status: meta-analysis

    try again my friend.

    please indulge the class,

    can you cite me a single professional healthcare organization that supports the paleo diet?

    can you cite a single example as to how there is a conspiracy by professional organizations that is attempting to hold down the paleo diet?

    cite a meta-analysis or similar statistical analysis literature review study that demonstrates a correlation factor of 0.3 or greater with a study group of 1,000 or larger that demonstrates that the paleo does any of the magical things it is claimed to do.
  9. 0
    Quote from Asystole RN
    Can you cite me a single professional healthcare organization that supports the pale diet?
    I've already explained why this doesn't matter, please pay attention.

    Quote from Asystole RN
    Can you cite a single example as to how there is a conspiracy by these professional organizations that is attempting to hold down the paleo diet?
    I never said they were.
    Quote from Asystole RN
    I've been told time to time that I am arrogant but I have never had the hubris to declare that the AMA, ADA, NANP, and IAACN simply does not know what they are talking about. I want to go to your nursing school, to teach enough nutrition to know more than whole professional groups of MDs and RDs in a 1 semester class is amazing!
    I agree with one thing, you are indeed arrogant. I alone am not declaring that the AMA,ADA, NANP, and IAACN don't know what they're talking about, but rather I stand on the shoulders of many people who do. And I have read hundreds of studies...because it's interesting and research was a big part of my academic past.

    Quote from Asystole RN
    I am surprised that a new grad nurse was able to read and digest so many studies, usually this takes years of dedicated studies but you manage to refute thousands of years worth of study and hundreds of thousands of years worth of experience that is represent in the AMA, ADA etc...
    As for being a new grad, It's true but irrelevant. If you must know seeing as how we're all ad hominem up in here: at 32, (I'm now 38) I went back to school to become a nurse (Gasp! Nursing isn't my first rodeo!) because 1) I like helping people, and 2) A degree in Evolutionary Anthropology just doesn't pay that well. Can you guess what my thesis was about? Mesoamerican Transitional Subsistance Strategy and it's Affect on Paleo-Indian Brain Development. (Sounds kinda "nutritiony" doesn't it?) Now, I'm in NP school...and SOMEHOW I find the time to post on allnurses.
  10. 0
    Quote from mingez
    I've already explained why this doesn't matter, please pay attention.


    I never said they were.

    I agree with one thing, you are indeed arrogant. I alone am not declaring that the AMA,ADA, NANP, and IAACN don't know what they're talking about, but rather I stand on the shoulders of many people who do. And I have read hundreds of studies...because it's interesting and research was a big part of my academic past.


    As for being a new grad, It's true but irrelevant. If you must know seeing as how we're all ad hominem up in here: at 32, (I'm now 38) I went back to school to become a nurse (Gasp! Nursing isn't my first rodeo!) because 1) I like helping people, and 2) A degree in Evolutionary Anthropology just doesn't pay that well. Can you guess what my thesis was about? Mesoamerican Transitional Subsistance Strategy and it's Affect on Paleo-Indian Brain Development. (Sounds kinda "nutritiony" doesn't it?) Now, I'm in NP school...and SOMEHOW I find the time to post on allnurses.
    Fine,

    Cite a meta-analysis or similar statistical analysis literature review study that demonstrates a correlation factor of 0.3 or greater with a study group of 1,000 or larger that demonstrates that the paleo does any of the magical things it is claimed to do.


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