Paleo/Primal Diet? - pg.3 | allnurses

Paleo/Primal Diet? - page 3

Does anyone have any experience with the Paleo diet? Like what you'd see on Mark's Daily Apple or PaNu - PāNu Blog . Did anyone have a positive (or negative) experience with it? Do you see any major... Read More

  1. Visit  mingez profile page
    0
    i'll make this real simple for you.



    what you are asking has never been done for any diet...not even the current recommendations by the ada. the largest rct study for a diet was 827 and that was the "
    diogenes study." (pubmed link) and that favored a paleo macronutrient ratio. so already, you're asking me to show you something that the us government has never succeeded in doing due to the sheer cost! and that, my friend, is the problem!

    i will, however, site many studies that show correlation to aspects of the diet (and some are paleo specific). such as ketogenic diets, such as high fat low carb, saturated fats effect on gut flora, cancer, heart disease, gluten intolerance, intestinal permeability, gut dysbiosis, leptin disregualtion, insulin resistance, correlations that disprove the current recommendations, etc. because that's all that exists either for or against all diets be they sad, ada, paleo, weston a. price, atkins, whatever.



    [color=#646464]1. frassetto la, schloetter m, mietus-synder m, morris rc, jr., sebastian a: metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet. eur j clin nutr 2009.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]2. jnsson t, granfeldt y, ahrn b, branell uc, plsson g, hansson a, sderstrm m, lindeberg s. beneficial effects of a paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study. cardiovasc diabetol. 2009;8:35
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]3. jonsson t, granfeldt y, erlanson-albertsson c, ahren b, lindeberg s. a paleolithic diet is more satiating per calorie than a mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischemic heart disease. nutr metab (lond). 2010 nov 30;7(1):85
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]4. jonsson t, ahren b, pacini g, sundler f, wierup n, steen s, sjoberg t, ugander m, frostegard j, goransson lindeberg s: a paleolithic diet confers higher insulin sensitivity, lower c-reactive protein and lower blood pressure than a cereal-based diet in domestic pigs. nutr metab (lond) 2006, 3:39.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]5. lindeberg s, jonsson t, granfeldt y, borgstrand e, soffman j, sjostrom k, ahren b: a palaeolithic diet improves glucose tolerance more than a mediterranean-like diet in individuals with ischaemic heart disease. diabetologia 2007, 50(9):1795-1807.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]6. o’dea k: marked improvement in carbohydrate and lipid metabolism in diabetic australian aborigines after temporary reversion to traditional lifestyle. diabetes 1984, 33(6):596-603.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]7. osterdahl m, kocturk t, koochek a, wandell pe: effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers. eur j clin nutr 2008, 62(5):682-685.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]8. larsen tm, dalskov sm, van baak m, jebb sa, papadaki a, pfeiffer af, martinez ja, handjieva-darlenska t, kunešov m, pihlsgrd m, stender s, holst c, saris wh, astrup a; diet, obesity, and genes (diogenes) project. diets with high or low protein content and glycemic index for weight-loss maintenance. n engl j med. 2010 nov 25;363(22):2102-13
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]9. papadaki a, linardakis m, larsen tm, van baak ma, lindroos ak, pfeiffer af, martinez ja, handjieva-darlenska t, kunesov m, holst c, astrup a, saris wh, kafatos a; diogenes study group. the effect of protein and glycemic index on children’s body composition: the diogenes randomized study. pediatrics. 2010 nov;126(5):e1143-52
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]10. cordain l. saturated fat consumption in ancestral human diets: implications for contemporary intakes. in: phytochemicals, nutrient-gene interactions, meskin ms, bidlack wr, randolph rk (eds.), crc press (taylor & francis group), 2006, pp. 115-126.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]11. cordain l, miller jb, eaton sb, mann n, holt sh, speth jd. plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets.am j clin nutr. 2000 mar;71(3):682-92.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]12. cordain l. the nutritional characteristics of a contemporary diet based upon paleolithic food groups. j am nutraceut assoc 2002; 5:15-24.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]13. cordain l, eaton sb, sebastian a, mann n, lindeberg s, watkins ba, o’keefe jh, brand-miller j. origins and evolution of the western diet: health implications for the 21st century. am j clin nutr. 2005 feb;81(2):341-54.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]14. kuipers rs, luxwolda mf, dijck-brouwer da, eaton sb, crawford ma, cordain l, muskiet fa. estimated macronutrient and fatty acid intakes from an east african paleolithic diet. br j nutr. 2010 dec;104(11):1666-87.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]15. ramsden ce, faurot kr, carrera-bastos p, cordain l, de lorgeril m, sperling ls.dietary fat quality and coronary heart disease prevention: a unified theory based on evolutionary, historical, global, and modern perspectives. curr treat options cardiovasc med. 2009 aug;11(4):289-301.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]16. cordain l, eaton sb, miller jb, mann n, hill k. the paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: meat-based, yet non-atherogenic. eur j clin nutr. 2002 mar;56 suppl 1:s42-52
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]17. cordain l, watkins ba, florant gl, kelher m, rogers l, li y. fatty acid analysis of wild ruminant tissues: evolutionary implications for reducing diet-related chronic disease. eur j clin nutr. 2002 mar;56(3):181-91
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]18. carrera-bastos p, fontes villalba m, o’keefe jh, lindeberg s, cordain l. the western diet and lifestyle and diseases of civilization. res rep clin cardiol 2011; 2: 215-235.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]19. hoppe c, mlgaard c, vaag a, barkholt v, michaelsen kf. high intakes of milk, but not meat, increase s-insulin and insulin resistance in 8-year-old boys. eur j clin nutr. 2005 mar;59(3):393-8.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]20. micha r, wallace sk, mozaffarian d. red and processed meat consumption and risk of incident coronary heart disease, stroke, and diabetes mellitus: a systematic review and meta-analysis. circulation. 2010 jun 1;121(21):2271-83
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]21. micha r, mozaffarian d. saturated fat and cardiometabolic risk factors, coronary heart disease, stroke, and diabetes: a fresh look at the evidence. lipids. 2010 oct;45(10):893-905. epub 2010 mar 31.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]22. mozaffarian d, micha r, wallace s. effects on coronary heart disease of increasing polyunsaturated fat in place of saturated fat: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. plos med. 2010 mar 23;7(3):e1000252.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]23. siri-tarino pw, sun q, hu fb, krauss rm. saturated fatty acids and risk of coronary heart disease: modulation by replacement nutrients. curr atheroscler rep. 2010 nov;12(6):384-90.
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]24. siri-tarino pw, sun q, hu fb, krauss rm. saturated fat, carbohydrate, and cardiovascular disease. am j clin nutr. 2010 mar;91(3):502-9
    [color=#646464]
    [color=#646464]25. siri-tarino pw, sun q, hu fb, krauss rm. meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease. am j clin nutr. 2010 mar;91(3):535-46


  2. Visit  Asystole RN profile page
    0
    Quote from mingez
    i'll make this real simple for you.



    what you are asking has never been done for any diet...not even the current recommendations by the ada. the largest rct study for a diet was 827 and that was the "
    diogenes study." (pubmed link) and that favored a paleo macronutrient ratio. so already, you're asking me to show you something that the us government has never succeeded in doing due to the sheer cost! and that, my friend, is the problem!

    i will, however, site many studies that show correlation to aspects of the diet (and some are paleo specific). such as ketogenic diets, such as high fat low carb, saturated fats effect on gut flora, cancer, heart disease, gluten intolerance, intestinal permeability, gut dysbiosis, leptin disregualtion, insulin resistance, correlations that disprove the current recommendations, etc. because that's all that exists either for or against all diets be they sad, ada, paleo, weston a. price, atkins, whatever.

    ...
    really? thats funny because after 4 seconds of searching i located a meta-analysis on the mediterranean diet that encompassed 1.5 million study subjects.

    sofi, f., cesari, f., abbate, r., gensini, g.f., casini, a. (2008). adherence to mediterranean diet and health status: meta-analysis. retrieved from adherence to mediterranean diet and health status: meta-analysis

    try again my friend.

    please indulge the class,

    can you cite me a single professional healthcare organization that supports the paleo diet?

    can you cite a single example as to how there is a conspiracy by professional organizations that is attempting to hold down the paleo diet?

    cite a meta-analysis or similar statistical analysis literature review study that demonstrates a correlation factor of 0.3 or greater with a study group of 1,000 or larger that demonstrates that the paleo does any of the magical things it is claimed to do.
  3. Visit  mingez profile page
    0
    Quote from Asystole RN
    Can you cite me a single professional healthcare organization that supports the pale diet?
    I've already explained why this doesn't matter, please pay attention.

    Quote from Asystole RN
    Can you cite a single example as to how there is a conspiracy by these professional organizations that is attempting to hold down the paleo diet?
    I never said they were.
    Quote from Asystole RN
    I've been told time to time that I am arrogant but I have never had the hubris to declare that the AMA, ADA, NANP, and IAACN simply does not know what they are talking about. I want to go to your nursing school, to teach enough nutrition to know more than whole professional groups of MDs and RDs in a 1 semester class is amazing!
    I agree with one thing, you are indeed arrogant. I alone am not declaring that the AMA,ADA, NANP, and IAACN don't know what they're talking about, but rather I stand on the shoulders of many people who do. And I have read hundreds of studies...because it's interesting and research was a big part of my academic past.

    Quote from Asystole RN
    I am surprised that a new grad nurse was able to read and digest so many studies, usually this takes years of dedicated studies but you manage to refute thousands of years worth of study and hundreds of thousands of years worth of experience that is represent in the AMA, ADA etc...
    As for being a new grad, It's true but irrelevant. If you must know seeing as how we're all ad hominem up in here: at 32, (I'm now 38) I went back to school to become a nurse (Gasp! Nursing isn't my first rodeo!) because 1) I like helping people, and 2) A degree in Evolutionary Anthropology just doesn't pay that well. Can you guess what my thesis was about? Mesoamerican Transitional Subsistance Strategy and it's Affect on Paleo-Indian Brain Development. (Sounds kinda "nutritiony" doesn't it?) Now, I'm in NP school...and SOMEHOW I find the time to post on allnurses.
  4. Visit  Asystole RN profile page
    0
    Quote from mingez
    I've already explained why this doesn't matter, please pay attention.


    I never said they were.

    I agree with one thing, you are indeed arrogant. I alone am not declaring that the AMA,ADA, NANP, and IAACN don't know what they're talking about, but rather I stand on the shoulders of many people who do. And I have read hundreds of studies...because it's interesting and research was a big part of my academic past.


    As for being a new grad, It's true but irrelevant. If you must know seeing as how we're all ad hominem up in here: at 32, (I'm now 38) I went back to school to become a nurse (Gasp! Nursing isn't my first rodeo!) because 1) I like helping people, and 2) A degree in Evolutionary Anthropology just doesn't pay that well. Can you guess what my thesis was about? Mesoamerican Transitional Subsistance Strategy and it's Affect on Paleo-Indian Brain Development. (Sounds kinda "nutritiony" doesn't it?) Now, I'm in NP school...and SOMEHOW I find the time to post on allnurses.
    Fine,

    Cite a meta-analysis or similar statistical analysis literature review study that demonstrates a correlation factor of 0.3 or greater with a study group of 1,000 or larger that demonstrates that the paleo does any of the magical things it is claimed to do.
  5. Visit  mingez profile page
    0
    Quote from Asystole RN
    Really? Thats funny because after 4 seconds of searching I located a meta-analysis on the Mediterranean diet that encompassed 1.5 million study subjects.

    Sofi, F., Cesari, F., Abbate, R., Gensini, G.F., Casini, A. (2008). Adherence to Mediterranean diet and health status: meta-analysis. Retrieved from Adherence to Mediterranean diet and health status: meta-analysis

    Try again my friend.

    Please indulge the class,

    Can you cite me a single professional healthcare organization that supports the paleo diet?

    Can you cite a single example as to how there is a conspiracy by professional organizations that is attempting to hold down the paleo diet?

    Cite a meta-analysis or similar statistical analysis literature review study that demonstrates a correlation factor of 0.3 or greater with a study group of 1,000 or larger that demonstrates that the paleo does any of the magical things it is claimed to do.
    My fault, I didn't realize it was strictly meta-analysis you required. I was referring to a Randomized Controlled Trails with subject over 1,000. Nevertheless, there are some in that list I supplied.
  6. Visit  Asystole RN profile page
    0
    Quote from mingez
    My fault, I didn't realize it was strictly meta-analysis you required. I was referring to Randomized Controlled Trails with subject over 1,000. Nevertheless, there are some in that list I supplied.
    Single studies, even studies with groups of tens of thousands are not reliable due to study specific variables. This is why meta-analysis and other statistical analysis is so important, it looks at the trends of many studies to help mitigate study specific variables and forms a statistical correlation. You will learn this in your professional research class.

    So which study is a meta-analysis or similar statistical analysis literature review study that demonstrates a correlation factor of 0.3 or greater with a study group of 1,000 or larger that demonstrates that the paleo diet does any of the magical things it is claimed to do?
  7. Visit  MN-Nurse profile page
    4
    Drink water, eat a sensible diet, (omnivores have a lot of choices here) and exercise.

    Oh, and fad diets are usually stupid.
    Aurora77, rnmi2004, Not_A_Hat_Person, and 1 other like this.
  8. Visit  KalipsoRed21 profile page
    1
    @AsystoleRN
    I think MINGEZ clarified your question regarding the ADA quite well...as that is what I had in mind when I wrote the statement.

    I was not attemting to make an opposing statments when I said it is correct that it is NOT the RN's place to give dietary advice. Technically that is a true statement, but as MINGEZ has pointed out either you are the kind of person that will do what you think is right or you will do what policy demands of you. Sometimes those things coincide, sometimes they don't. When policy and your critcally thinking brain don't meet up then that is the deciding moment one choses what kind of person they are. I respect and understand both actions, I'm just the kind of person that goes with my critically thinking brain instead of what someone else tells me I'm suppose to do.

    I think the current ADA advice is killing people. I know that the paleo diet is a lifestyle choice just as much as the recommended ADA diet is. In an effort to get my patient's to THINK, I give them sources for several diets to help them chose one that may fit their lifestyle. I think the paleo diet fits the majority of my patient's lifestyles and thus I give information on it quite a bit.

    @ MINGEZ This is why I mentioned that it is NOT a nurse's place to give diet advice. While I commend your efforts to be well informed and a resource to your patients, being a critical thinker and an individual can easily get you fired in this field.
    mingez likes this.
  9. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    4
    I don't think many would argue that compared to the standard Western diet, a diet of mainly vegetables, fruits, nuts and fish and without sweetened or processed foods is healthier. If referring to that as a "paleolithic" diet is what gets people to eat that way, then I'm not going to argue with it.

    That being said, I will argue just for the sake of arguing.
    While it is true that fruits, veggies, nuts, etc are healthy, and also happened to be part of the paleolithic diet, assuming that this means all aspects of the paleolithic diet is healthy is bad logic. That's like saying because oranges and carrots are healthy, every orange colored food must be healthy and adopting an "orange" diet, even thought that may include large portions of circus peanuts and cheeze-whiz. (I went through multiple examples of diets that I thought were too ridiculous to be true, and kept having to start over because it turned out each one actually existed, including the "orange colored food" diet, so I finally gave up.)

    This is what separates a science based diet from a fad diet. A fad diet is based on a gimmick (eat like a caveman!) Rather than eating what the science says is best, you eat only what conforms to the gimmick. For the most part, this isn't a huge problem with the paleo diet since most of it happens to be healthy. However there are still examples of where adherence to the "gimmick" conflicts with the science. The paleo diet welcomes root vegetables such as potatoes and yams, ie unhealthy simple starches, yet at the same time shuns much healthier complex carbs such as oatmeal.

    There is a lot of evidence that certain aspects of paleo diet are healthy, although using that as proof that the paleo diet as a whole is scientifically based is flawed. Using the same trick I could argue that my circus peanut/cheeze-whiz/carrot based orange diet is scientifically proven to be healthy because I can provide a study that shows carrots are healthy.

    Of the studies that look at paleo diets as a whole many of them are pretty weak, which is a little surprising since it shouldn't be that hard to show that a diet which for the most part follows basic healthy eating principles is in fact healthy. I hate to cherry pick, but let's look at one study in particular; the Osterdahl et al study "Effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers." This study had a 30% dropout rate, particularly concerning for a study that only started with 20 subjects. In the end, complete data was only available for 6 of the subjects and there was no control group in the study. The fact that this was even published by a supposedly reputable journal is depressing.

    The upside to gimmicky/fad diets is that their novelty often succeeds in changing people's eating habits, in the same way a good "hook" in a pop song grabs your attention, the downside is that the catchy hook of a song that you can't get enough of at first eventually gets old, making fad diets sort of the nutritional version of the Macarena.

    In the end, I am in now way opposed to fad diets that produce overall healthier eating habits in people than would have occurred otherwise, even if it is intermittent. And as I sit here enjoying pizza and an IPA, I certainly can't criticize Mingez for his dietary habits which are far superior to mine or his commitment to them; more power to you.
    Last edit by MunoRN on Feb 13, '12
  10. Visit  KalipsoRed21 profile page
    0
    Eloquently put MunoRN. I guess my main objection is that I believe the ADA recomendations are not as scientifically absloute as they are put forth to be by medicine. Even the restructured food pyramid does not seem 'healthy' to me. My issue would be that, as you pointed out with your carrot example, all studies can be slanted to whomever wants the data. So if I'm a farmer I'm sure as heck going to put the money forth so some scientist can tell the world that my grains are a good staple in their diet. Same goes for cow meat, chickens, etc. The government provides large subsidies for grains and meat, thus how much can you trust food recommendations from the government?

    The old and new food pyramids still suggest that the largest portion of a person's calories come from grains. With type II diabetes becoming an ever increasing issue in our population today I don't see any food recommendation that states the largest portion of one's caloric intake should be from carbohydrate rich foods as a logical one. Carbs are sugar, even the good slow insulin rising ones are just sugar. I realize that the brain needs carbs to work, that everyone needs to eat some carbs to be healthy, but I just don't see the logic in suggesting that the largest portion of ones caloric intake should be from sugar....even 'good' sugar.

    I don't understand why the government doesn't realize that too....oh, wait...it's because the people doing the studies are not looking out for my best interest...they are looking out for their cash flow.

    I suggest the dietary resources I do to my patients (unless they have kidney problems, cancer, or some other medical issue that would deter me from giving them 'average' advice) because it is advice that is low in carbs and saturated fats.
  11. Visit  morte profile page
    0
    Quote from MunoRN
    I don't think many would argue that compared to the standard Western diet, a diet of mainly vegetables, fruits, nuts and fish and without sweetened or processed foods is healthier. If referring to that as a "paleolithic" diet is what gets people to eat that way, then I'm not going to argue with it.

    That being said, I will argue just for the sake of arguing.
    While it is true that fruits, veggies, nuts, etc are healthy, and also happened to be part of the paleolithic diet, assuming that this means all aspects of the paleolithic diet is healthy is bad logic. That's like saying because oranges and carrots are healthy, every orange colored food must be healthy and adopting an "orange" diet, even thought that may include large portions of circus peanuts and cheeze-whiz. (I went through multiple examples of diets that I thought were too ridiculous to be true, and kept having to start over because it turned out each one actually existed, including the "orange colored food" diet, so I finally gave up.)

    This is what separates a science based diet from a fad diet. A fad diet is based on a gimmick (eat like a caveman!) Rather than eating what the science says is best, you eat only what conforms to the gimmick. For the most part, this isn't a huge problem with the paleo diet since most of it happens to be healthy. However there are still examples of where adherence to the "gimmick" conflicts with the science. The paleo diet welcomes root vegetables such as potatoes and yams, ie unhealthy simple starches, yet at the same time shuns much healthier complex carbs such as oatmeal.

    There is a lot of evidence that certain aspects of paleo diet are healthy, although using that as proof that the paleo diet as a whole is scientifically based is flawed. Using the same trick I could argue that my circus peanut/cheeze-whiz/carrot based orange diet is scientifically proven to be healthy because I can provide a study that shows carrots are healthy.

    Of the studies that look at paleo diets as a whole many of them are pretty weak, which is a little surprising since it shouldn't be that hard to show that a diet which for the most part follows basic healthy eating principles is in fact healthy. I hate to cherry pick, but let's look at one study in particular; the Osterdahl et al study "Effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers." This study had a 30% dropout rate, particularly concerning for a study that only started with 20 subjects. In the end, complete data was only available for 6 of the subjects and there was no control group in the study. The fact that this was even published by a supposedly reputable journal is depressing.

    The upside to gimmicky/fad diets is that their novelty often succeeds in changing people's eating habits, in the same way a good "hook" in a pop song grabs your attention, the downside is that the catchy hook of a song that you can't get enough of at first eventually gets old, making fad diets sort of the nutritional version of the Macarena.

    In the end, I am in now way opposed to fad diets that produce overall healthier eating habits in people than would have occurred otherwise, even if it is intermittent. And as I sit here enjoying pizza and an IPA, I certainly can't criticize Mingez for his dietary habits which are far superior to mine or his commitment to them; more power to you.
    I checked 4 sites, didn't find any that accepted potatoes or sweet potatoes...and did you know that it was started by a GI doc?
  12. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    0
    Quote from morte
    I checked 4 sites, didn't find any that accepted potatoes or sweet potatoes...and did you know that it was started by a GI doc?
    I noticed that there are surprising number of inconsistencies for something that seems to be somewhat absolute by design, the paleo position on starches is definitely one of those topics that doesn't have 100% agreement. But the widely accepted position seems to be that sweet potatoes and yams are acceptable. My impression is that Robb Wolf is considered an authority on paleo, he stated "Paleo friendly carbohydrate such as yams, sweet potatoes," FAQ
    I also found what appears to be a popular paleo site with recipes, that included sweet potato fries, soup, and casserole: Paleo Diet Recipes | Home of delicious paleo recipes
    I also found this comment: "Potatoes are probably the most favored starch source in the paleo community for several reasons." Are sweet potatoes Paleo? - PaleoHacks.com
  13. Visit  FLRNR profile page
    1
    Sigh...Atkins, Zone, South Beach, Paleo, next??? Maybe portion control, exercise (cardio AND weights), non-processed foods, eliminate red meat, fresh fish once a week, eat your veggies. Sorry, no fancy or catchy name, just common sense. For the one who posted that the Paleo diet was/is a cure-all for your entire family - happy for you and yours and hope it continues.
    Aurora77 likes this.


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