DNR orders

med/oncRN · Mar 3, 2009

I actually have seen one md who had the balls to tell a patient who was circling the drain that we could absolutely do nothing more for him other than to keep him comfortable. The patient wanted to be a full code, but the doctor wrote DNR. The ethics board reviewed it and sided with the doctor. The patient died two days later. I also was at an oncology seminar and an md speaker stated that a doctor if they were brave enough can write a DNR if coding a patient is futile. We just rarely see it. Any thoughts on this. Also, at our facility even if you have a DNR on file, the doctor still has to write the order. Just because it was effective on a previous admit it still has to be readdressed and written by and] MD. Check old records:saint: and be an advocate for your patients, their wishes are often overlooked.

Magsulfate, BSN, RN · Mar 3, 2009

Had a patient once, a few years ago, that was in her 40's. She was a cancer patient and was hit hard and fast by it. She wanted to be a full code and so we full coded her. It really didn't make much of a difference. Maybe a day, it gave her another day of laying there swollen with edema, seeping with fluid,, unconscious, on a vent, stiff as a board because she was so swollen. She didn't even look like the same woman that came into the ICU two weeks earlier. She got another day of that, and her family got another day of looking at her like that.

Roy Fokker, BSN, RN · Mar 9, 2009

"I have been here before- they have it on file".

My response to the above is always the same: "Yes, I understand that. But I still need to see your copy - for a couple of reasons. One, to make sure that our copy matches yours. Second, to incorporate any changes you might have made. Lastly, for legal purposes, I need to have a current copy on file for record. I want to avoid any errors, that's all".

I use the same spiel for "medication/allergy lists" as well. :)

cheers,

marmsgirl · Mar 9, 2009

POLSTs are great, I wish more people were educated about them. Patients wishes are spelled out simple and dont require pt or family signing and dr signing for each hospital visit.

massrn116 · Mar 9, 2009

At our place DNR alone does not mean anything. We have to have CMO orders. It is unbelievable what can be done to people without coding them.. Simply put doctors have to learn to tell the 70-80 or 90 year old with multiple co-morbidities "sorry there is nothing more we can do." Every day we see the costs of health care soar because people have not talked about their wishes or those that have, there is an inevitable HCP that will step in and want everything done when the patient cannot speak for themselves. Is it because of the potential profit. Are MD's "helping" these people to earn some extra cash? I usually try to educate families and tell them sometimes the most loving thing they can do is let go.

ShyViolet · Sep 21, 2009

I remember an unfortunate incident involving an elderly man who had terminal cancer with mets to the brain and lungs. He was DNR, but while in hospital his respiratory status declined. Eventually, his ABGs deteriorated to the point that he became unable to make his own decisions, so his daughter who was POA made him a full code. He did code, and was on ECMO for a time. He ended up doing well, but when he was finally extubated he was livid with rage!

stripec30 · Nov 4, 2009

If only patients could put a clause in the DNR forbidding family from changing 'the patients wishes' once they become incapacitated.

tewdles, RN · Nov 5, 2009

I do not think that physicians should tell their patients that "there is nothing more that we can do" because that is by and large not true. What is true is that they are not likely going to cure them. They often can, however, do many things which will decrease the symptom burden and make the person more comfortable and functional. Unfortunately, physicians think primarily in terms of "fixing" whatever the disease is, rather than fixing the quality of life of the patient. This is part of the reason that many patients in hospice are happier and live longer than their peers with the same diagnosis' who remain in the traditional medical field. (a simple internet search will hook you up with lots of reading material on stats)

It is helpful to be brutally honest with patients and family members who seem to have unrealistic concepts of what it will mean to them to have a "full code". Most will reconsider their choice when they hear the facts and truth about resusitation. There will always be a percentage who for some reason cannot make the DNR choice. What is problematic for me is that the evidence suggests that people/families/patients are making choices about DNR using incomplete and often incorrect information...the suggestion is that people are NOT getting the complete package of info regarding this important subject because some healthcare workers are uncomfortable with the info, with their role in the information process, with the interaction with sad families...for really quite a number of reasons. The bottom line is this....as health professionals we CAN impact these decisions by making sure to provide the involved parties with ALL of the facts, by not prettying things up, by advocating one patient at a time for death with peace and dignity.

OldnurseRN · Nov 5, 2009

Since I work in a small Critical Access Hospital on an overnight shift I get few admissions but, since we are required to ask about Advanced Directives I use this opportunity to further explain (and ask that all-important question on their wishes). Our doctors are very good about then speaking to the patient and writing the DNR order.

danie118 · Nov 12, 2009

Does your hospital use DNR bands or any other DNR identifiers?

danie118 · Nov 12, 2009

Just out of curiosity, does your hospital use DNR bands? I'm a student nurse from California State Univ of San Bernardino and I'm collecting nurses' views about the use of DNR bands. Does your hospital use DNR bands? If so, is it effective? If not, do you think they would be beneficial.

allnurses Guide · Nov 18, 2009

We don't use DNAR bands but we do have a DNAR form that is in the front of the patient notes on bright yellow paper.