Nurse: 'I was fired for refusing flu shot' - page 5

by DesertRN2 61,813 Views | 266 Comments

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  1. 1
    Quote from Ella Halligan RN
    You can keep repeating that, it won't make it true. My father worked in human resources and employment law for many years. Even at-will employment in right-to-work states can be contested in a court of law.

    In addition, the rights fought for and won by union employees are often upheld for non-union employees in court cases as precedents. That is why so many of what the nurses in California unions fight for in terms of patient loads or work safety often has a positive effect on those issues nationwide (over time).

    Seriously these red herrings being interjected into the argument are not improving the dialogue. Saying that your father worked in employment law and HR for years is like saying, "yeah, well I know better because my mom is a nurse."

    I think everyone is being civil in this discussion. It can be interesting as long as we don't think you are going to convince anyone else of anything and we stick to the issue at hand.
    life_aknew likes this.
  2. 0
    Quote from CuriousMe
    My Dad also worked in HR, and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night...your point?
    LMAO
  3. 3
    Quote from One2gofst
    Your employer has the right to insist that you most anything that is legal as a condition of employment. The straw man argument comparing an employer setting conditions of employment to the govt. requiring you to have an abortion is specious.

    Once again, I support your right to decide what you will do to be employed as well as an employers right to define what they require of you to be employed.
    You may feel it is specious. As someone who spent a great deal of time behind the Iron Curtain in Soviet controlled Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Germany, who has walked through the gas chambers at Dachau and Auschwitz, I guarantee you that it is never in the best interests of any group of individuals to willingly lay down their rights.

    As to your first paragraph... you're right.... most anything that is legal. At this time, it is not legal to force someone to accept a foreign substance injected into their body without their consent, unless irreparable harm can be proven AND it is proven that the stated remedy will result in preventing that harm. If it were, we would not need ethics panels and courts to determine whether a JW can be forced to accept blood products. We would not need doctor's orders and some showing that an individual is a risk to himself and others to hold him down and inject Haldol into him.

    It is questionable as to whether mandatory flu vaccination of healthcare workers accomplishes what it is designed to accomplish. It is proven that standards such as universal precautions DO accomplish those goals. How, therefore, is it proven that irreparable harm will come from individuals within the healthcare profession choosing not to be vaccinated? And, with that not proven, how is it the right of my employer to require it of any employee who accepted and has performed adequately for any number of years to suddenly have to accept vaccination as a condition of continued employment? If you can't see the lawsuit fodder there, you're not looking.
    which_path, nola1202, and Bella'sMyBaby like this.
  4. 2
    Quote from CuriousMe
    My Dad also worked in HR, and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night...your point?

    You can contest anything in a court-of-law....that doesn't mean you'll win.
    No, but in the case above.... they did.
    nola1202 and Bella'sMyBaby like this.
  5. 1
    The fact is that no one is addressing the actual point:

    There is a non-invasive way to accomplish the same goal. But hey, if throwing out one-liners because you can't argue that legitimate point makes you feel good, go for it.
    Bella'sMyBaby likes this.
  6. 0
    Quote from Ella Halligan RN
    My employer has the right to insist that I be productive and work within the rules in terms of allowed sick days and time off. It does not have the right to tell me HOW I must protect my health.
    Does your employer have the right to protect its patients? If there were another scientifically supported option and the employer insisted on the flu shot over that, I could support your argument and would heartily do so.
  7. 0
    Quote from Ella Halligan RN
    You may feel it is specious. As someone who spent a great deal of time behind the Iron Curtain in Soviet controlled Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Germany, who has walked through the gas chambers at Dachau and Auschwitz, I guarantee you that it is never in the best interests of any group of individuals to willingly lay down their rights.

    As to your first paragraph... you're right.... most anything that is legal. At this time, it is not legal to force someone to accept a foreign substance injected into their body without their consent, unless irreparable harm can be proven AND it is proven that the stated remedy will result in preventing that harm. If it were, we would not need ethics panels and courts to determine whether a JW can be forced to accept blood products. We would not need doctor's orders and some showing that an individual is a risk to himself and others to hold him down and inject Haldol into him.

    It is questionable as to whether mandatory flu vaccination of healthcare workers accomplishes what it is designed to accomplish. It is proven that standards such as universal precautions DO accomplish those goals. How, therefore, is it proven that irreparable harm will come from individuals within the healthcare profession choosing not to be vaccinated? And, with that not proven, how is it the right of my employer to require it of any employee who accepted and has performed adequately for any number of years to suddenly have to accept vaccination as a condition of continued employment? If you can't see the lawsuit fodder there, you're not looking.

    Once again, you are using irrelevant appeals/ad hominems to propose why your opinion should be more valid than anothers. Enough with the logical fallacies in your position, please. A patient is not the same as an employee, that is a fact. In vaccinations for employment, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Hell, in an employment at will state, as employer can fire you if it doesn't like the shoes you are wearing, if it wants to. The fact of the matter is they generally don't, as it would create a lot of work to keep a staff. However, if an employer feels strongly enought about something the can make it a requirement of continued employment.

    Since you seem to be focusing on the issue of invasive procedures, let me pose a hypothetical, just to see where you come out on it. If an employer had no requirement for random drug/alcohol screening when you hired on with the company and 5 years down the road decided to implement random drug/alcohol screenings, would you then contend that all those people hired before the policy was put in place would never be subject to those screenings?
  8. 2
    I'd go one step further- Smokers are at a MUCH higher risk of contracting resp illnesses- so can a hospital DEMAND that all of their employees are non-smokers? Several ppl on here have mentioned Hep b and TB testing- the BIG difference here is that those have been around for decades, and the flu (esp. swine) vaccines are brand new, untested.
    which_path and wound warrier like this.
  9. 0
    Quote from JDougRN
    I'd go one step further- Smokers are at a MUCH higher risk of contracting resp illnesses- so can a hospital DEMAND that all of their employees are non-smokers? Several ppl on here have mentioned Hep b and TB testing- the BIG difference here is that those have been around for decades, and the flu (esp. swine) vaccines are brand new, untested.
    Granted that the jury is out on flu vaccines - but, if you were a hospital decision maker, what would you do? You have an obligation to your patients and an obligation to your employees. The science may be imperfect right now but does that give you the right to ignore it entirely?
  10. 4
    influenza vaccine is not new...been around since 1950's.
    smallpox and polio vaccines started in 1960's with mass immunization clinics held around country (thanks mom and dad).

    as child, grieved when my friends brother died from measles. neighbor decided not to get son immunized for whooping cough---guess who almost died a year after this decision when not diagnosed by peds--concerned rn friend recognized illness.

    vaccines: pubs/vaccine timeline



    sars nurses sue canadian govt - nursing for nurses
    for not following infection control regs.
    Last edit by NRSKarenRN on Jan 8, '11
    EmmaZ06, Laidback Al, Kringe38, and 1 other like this.


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