Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Thank you Indigo Girl. Your posts are always thought producing!

My question to you is: Why do you think this is a different virus? There is NO controversy that those exposed to the limited spread H1N1 virus of the mid 1970s, this H1N1 virus in the 1950s and before, have at least partial, if not full immunity to this 2009 H1N1, because it is the same virus. The professional literature I read defines it as the same virus.

So, what is the source of this fact that it is a different virus?

Certain pathogens and the immune responses they trigger have a higher rate of producing inappropriate immune responses in susceptible individuals. And certain additives can act as a catalyst to that response.

I remain concerned about this issue.

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

Why do you think this is a different virus? There is NO controversy that those exposed to the limited spread H1N1 virus of the mid 1970s, this H1N1 virus in the 1950s and before, have at least partial, if not full immunity to this 2009 H1N1, because it is the same virus. The professional literature I read defines it as the same virus.

So, what is the source of this fact that it is a different virus?

Certain pathogens and the immune responses they trigger have a higher rate of producing inappropriate immune responses in susceptible individuals. And certain additives can act as a catalyst to that response.

I remain concerned about this issue.

You have made several fascinating statements in your short post, Pfiesty. Let's look at them more closely.

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

There is NO controversy that those exposed to the limited spread H1N1 virus of the mid 1970s...have at least partial, if not full immunity to this 2009 H1N1,

I am curious as to why you are saying this. Are you referring those infected at Ft. Dix? No one outside of that army post was infected, and they did serologic studies. I would love to look at the data regarding this. There may be some cross immunity, but I have not heard of these comparisons yet, and it would certainly merit a read. Where did you read this?

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

this H1N1 virus in the 1950s and before, have at least partial, if not full immunity to this 2009 H1N1, because it is the same virus.

We know that older people do seem to have some greater immunity but that does not mean it is the same virus. There are other possible reasons for this which we can look at. This may not be completely understood yet, but I have seen no one saying that it is because it is the same virus so I am very curious about your source.

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

Certain pathogens and the immune responses they trigger have a higher rate of producing inappropriate immune responses in susceptible individuals.

Let's talk influenza specifically. Which source is saying this if you are referring to the 1976 virus vs the 2009 virus. This could be rather important information so we really should look carefully at this if it is true. What are they saying about it?

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

And certain additives can act as a catalyst to that response.

Which additives? If this is of concern than there should be something in the literature regarding these additives, and I would very much like to look at this more closely.

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

I remain concerned about this issue

I am not clear about exactly what your issue is.

Is that that you think that the vaccine is not safe because you think that the 1976 virus and the 2009 swine viruses are the same virus?

Or that the additives are the same? And which additives in particular are you concerned about if this is what you are saying?

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

what is the source of this fact that it is a different virus?

Baylor, for one says that they are not the same. When they sequenced the virus, they found the genes from four different sources. That is very different from the 1976 virus which was solely swine origin.
http://www.bcm.edu/news/packages/swineflu.cfm

Originally Posted by www.bcm.ed

The 1976 virus was completely a swine virus but it mutated in a way that allowed it to spread from person to person. It did not have the same gene makeup as this virus. The current swine virus has gene segments from the Eurasian swine, the north American swine, avian and human viruses. It is in some way or another re-assorted with four different viruses to produce this virus. It is a novel construction and we don't know yet how virulent it will be or how much it will spread, but it is definitely a different virus.

Let's trade some references, Pfiesty. I have some things to do today but will do some research when I return.

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

I am leaving for out of town on business right now and will pick up when I return!

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

I am very concerned about this vaccine because from what I have read a similar vaccine administered in the 1970s caused a marked increase in post vaccine incidents of "Guillan Barre"...not good. That is enough to scare me.I have taken care of someone with this. It is horrible..so no thanks ..not for me.

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Jenny, me too. It is horrible.

Indigo, I did not want to leave without giving you at least a few of the citiations. Here they are:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=pandemic-payoff

citing New England Journal of Medicine
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-vaccine-dose-even

NEJM:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMra0904322

The small variation in the 1977 strain is best explained in Ken Alibek’s book, Biohazard. He was the Director of the Russian dDpartment overseeing Russian biological labs at the time. I read it about ten years ago. It is a great and enlightening read!


Enjoy!

"See" you when I get back!

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Yikes Indigo, I forgot to address your question about the vaccine additives as the possible culprit of induction of autoimmune response. Sorry!

Here is a quick one - gotta catch my plane!

Through a link at the NIH website and from the Journal of Autoimmunity....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10648110

Excerpt: ".....The findings could also represent a polyclonal activation (adjuvant reaction). The mechanism (or mechanisms) of autoimmune reactions following immunization has not yet been elucidated. One of the possibilities is molecular mimicry; when a structural similarity exists between some viral antigen (or other component of the vaccine) and a self-antigen. This similarity may be the trigger to the autoimmune reaction....."

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

Jenny, me too. It is horrible.

Indigo, I did not want to leave without giving you at least a few of the citiations. Here they are:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=pandemic-payoff

citing New England Journal of Medicine
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=single-vaccine-dose-even

NEJM:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMra0904322

The small variation in the 1977 strain is best explained in Ken Alibek’s book, Biohazard. He was the Director of the Russian dDpartment overseeing Russian biological labs at the time. I read it about ten years ago. It is a great and enlightening read!


Enjoy!

"See" you when I get back!

Well I just read the NEJM article and it says "It is not known whether low levels of cross-immunity against historically remote shared epitopes might confer some clinical protection against the newly emerging virus". It also goes to some length to describe the differences between the current and previous strains.

Also, vis the 1976 vaccine issues, do we really think that NO progress has been made on vaccine safety or lessons learned?

I hesitate to post this lest people seize on it as some proof of vaccine not working... I got the H1N1 vaccination but before I was a maximum immunity I actually got H1N1 from my niece and sister. I was exposed 5 days post vaccination. Consider that it is possible that similar happened to some in 1976. Entirely feasible. Now, consider that GB is a potential complication of influenza. Could it be that some of those folks in 1976 got GB from the flu rather than the vaccination? Could it be they might have been incubating the flu before the vaccination? Or contracted flu shortly after the vaccination before they were at full immunity.

Just some thoughts.

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Thanks for your thoughts.

That same NEJM also said, "Analysis of full genome sequences of representative influenza A (H1N1) viruses from 17 countries and five continents that were sampled between 1918 and 2006 shows that all eight segments of the virus have had generally congruent patterns of evolution over time.14 "

So we could argue how alike and how similar these viruses are; how much or how little they have evolved or merged, but that is all relative. Or we could concentrate on why there are complications and how to prevent them.

And yes, I am VERY hopeful and I do think (hope) there have been lessons learned and changes to the vaccines and safety. That brings me to my original question: Does anybody know -or can find information about what these changes/improvements are? Those facts remain MIA!

Be safe!
And hope there is no traffic enroute to airport today!

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Originally Posted by Pfiesty

Certain pathogens and the immune responses they trigger have a higher rate of producing inappropriate immune responses in susceptible individuals. And certain additives can act as a catalyst to that response.

Thank you for the link to the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10648110

Because it is an abstract, we don't get to see the conclusions which is unfortunate. It makes mention of many vaccines including other influenza vaccines, & seems to ask more questions but provides no real answers.

The adjuvant issue (which is your concern but not mine just to be clear) is not
really answered in this abstract. Adjuvants are substances that together with
antigen (Ag) increases antibody (Ab) production, to produce a greater immune
response thus enabling the use of less antigen. The use of adjuvants with flu
vaccine in the US has never been approved but the Canadians and the Europeans
are using adjuvants. So, I am wondering why adjuvants are being brought up as
an issue. And, again what adjuvant could you be referring to?

Why are you questioning the 2009 swine flu vaccine in particular, Pfiesty? What
makes this vaccine an issue for you rather than the seasonal vaccine or do you
have concerns about other vaccines as well that you have not mentioned?

Originally Posted by www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Vaccination and autoimmunity-'vaccinosis': a dangerous liaison?
Shoenfeld Y, Aron-Maor A.

Department of Internal Medicine B, Sheba Medical Center, Tel Hashomer, Israel. shoefel@post.tau.ac.il
The question of a connection between vaccination and autoimmune illness (or phenomena) is surrounded by controversy. A heated debate is going on regarding the causality between vaccines, such as measles and anti-hepatitis B virus (HBV), and multiple sclerosis (MS). Brain antibodies as well as clinical symptoms have been found in patients vaccinated against those diseases. Other autoimmune illnesses have been associated with vaccinations. Tetanus toxoid, influenza vaccines, polio vaccine, and others, have been related to phenomena ranging from autoantibodies production to full-blown illness (such as rheumatoid arthritis (RA)). Conflicting data exists regarding also the connection between autism and vaccination with measles vaccine. So far only one controlled study of an experimental animal model has been published, in which the possible causal relation between vaccines and autoimmune findings has been examined: in healthy puppies immunized with a variety of commonly given vaccines, a variety of autoantibodies have been documented but no frank autoimmune illness was recorded. The findings could also represent a polyclonal activation (adjuvant reaction). The mechanism (or mechanisms) of autoimmune reactions following immunization has not yet been elucidated. One of the possibilities is molecular mimicry; when a structural similarity exists between some viral antigen (or other component of the vaccine) and a self-antigen. This similarity may be the trigger to the autoimmune reaction. Other possible mechanisms are discussed. Even though the data regarding the relation between vaccination and autoimmune disease is conflicting, it seems that some autoimmune phenomena are clearly related to immunization (e.g. Guillain-Barre syndrome). The issue of the risk of vaccination remains a philosophical one, since to date the advantages of this policy have not been refuted, while the risk for autoimmune disease has not been irrevocably proved. We discuss the pros and cons of this issue (although the temporal relationship (i.e. always 2-3 months following immunization) is impressive).

Re: Should the H1N1 Vaccine be mandatory for Healthcare Professionals?

Originally Posted by shrinky

No I do not get yearly TB tests, I am allergic to them after all these years in nursing. If they promise me, which they can't, that I won't have an allergic reaction then maybe. But to make it mandatory, no way, I will retire first.

what is the reaction you have that makes you think you're allergic vs being a positive?