Would you assist in abortions? - page 24

I am just curious. Would you ever work in an abortion clinic? Would you give pills that would cause an abortion? Thanks... Read More

  1. by   Lisa C a Nurse2b
    I really did not mean to offend anyone. Please forgive me.
    I am pro life. I guess that is all I should have said. I hope to never be faced with the need to help with an abortion. If I am I pray God will help me to deal with my feelings.
    I'm sorry to have posted my feelings in this way.
    Abortion is not a joke. It is the taking of a life.
  2. by   Hellllllo Nurse
    Lisa,

    I forgive you for the joke. Can you forgive those of us who feel that preserving the right to choose is vitally important?
  3. by   Lisa C a Nurse2b
    Why yes If I need to forgive(not being sasy). In order for me to forgive then pro choicers would have had to do something wrong. You did nothing wrong to stand up for what you believe, same as me. I have never had anything against having a choice. I just choose life. Thats all. I don't have a problem with pro choice, my heart just hurts so much for the lives being lost. The right to choose is a wonderful freedom I hope we can keep.
    I can't explain my homor it is different to say the least and sometimes I come off very wrong. The first post is case in point.
  4. by   tntrn
    And when abortion was illegal, women resorted to illegal, unsafe and deadly means to get one. Many lives were lost then too. There's no reason to expect that to change if choice is legislated away. It isn't going to prevent abortion. It will just prevent safe ones. That is sad to me: that a woman would feel so desperate and trapped in a situation that she would risk her life to be out of it, possibly leaving other children motherless in the process.

    Unlike some, I cannot always be joyful over each and every conception. Once took care of a 15 year old whose BIL was the father of her baby. His child with his wife was 9 months old when this girl was in labor. You do the math. Her church people were all over the place, cooing about the "blessed event' while she cried for her mommy. I kept my mouth shut, did my job, and continue to this day to wonder just what blessed event they were referring to.

    I am an active member of a Protestant church, probably slightly right of the middle, but believe strongly that although not ideal, choice must be kept in place.
  5. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    Quote from tntrn
    And when abortion was illegal, women resorted to illegal, unsafe and deadly means to get one. Many lives were lost then too. There's no reason to expect that to change if choice is legislated away. It isn't going to prevent abortion. It will just prevent safe ones. That is sad to me: that a woman would feel so desperate and trapped in a situation that she would risk her life to be out of it, possibly leaving other children motherless in the process.

    Unlike some, I cannot always be joyful over each and every conception. Once took care of a 15 year old whose BIL was the father of her baby. His child with his wife was 9 months old when this girl was in labor. You do the math. Her church people were all over the place, cooing about the "blessed event' while she cried for her mommy. I kept my mouth shut, did my job, and continue to this day to wonder just what blessed event they were referring to.

    I am an active member of a Protestant church, probably slightly right of the middle, but believe strongly that although not ideal, choice must be kept in place.

    Very well said.
  6. by   PegRNBSN
    Quote from sbic56
    I know you know there is no such thing as a "16 week baby." It is this tactic of trying to twist terminology to strike an emotional response in an attempt to prove that abortion is murder. It's one thing to believe that some form of life begins at conception, but is quite another to state as fact that a 16 week fetus is equivilent to a baby. It is this mindset that is so objectionable. When prolife people put up those larger than life posters, it is primarily for shock value. Why else would they show a bloody, torn fetus 500 times it's true size of about 4 ounces, but for the purpose of exaggerating the truth? That 16 week developing fetus is just that, not a baby.
    I used the term 16 week baby because that is how we referred to the baby when the patient and I spoke. She strongly felt it was a baby, when the baby delivered it looked like a baby and she would have been deeply offended had I had called it her fetus. Point being for those who want their babies they are truly a small human life. Yes they are not equivalent to a full term baby but they are babies to their mothers.
  7. by   Laura2000mi
    "If I'm on call and they call my home, I get up at 3am, kiss my kids and drive in to assist in a D and C, or a D and E. They call, I answer. There are plenty of nurses who are willing to get out of bed to help."

    But do you assist for free? I assume that you would be compensated if you come in while on call. If abortion was a right of women, you would have to perform them for free, because if something is a right, the person is entitled to it no matter what. Abortion is a freedom, not a right.

    This is my argument against abortion...if you find any holes in it, please let me know. This is not a matter of opinion for me, but a black and white moral issue. So...here we go.
    ------------------------------------------------------

    For this argument, the definition of abortion is the killing of a person inside the womb. A person is defined as someone who has the ability to reason, or who will one day have the ability to reason.

    1. It is wrong (immoral) to kill an innocent person.
    2. It is not moral or immoral to kill human tissue (such as an amputation, removal of a tumor, fetal material before it becomes a "person", etc).

    There are three options for a fetus:

    1. It is always a person, and never just "human tissue", and thus it would always be wrong to kill it.
    2. It is always human tissue, and never becomes a human, and thus you can kill it any time. This is impossible since every person originates as a fetus, and eventually becomes a person...otherwise mothers could kill their five year old children, since they are still only human tissue.
    3. It originates at human tissue and at some specific point in time becomes a person.

    Most pro-choice people will agree with #3. The problem with this is that there is no clearly defined point at which the human tissue becomes a person. Since I define a "person" as someone who has the ability to reason, or who will one day have the ability to reason, then from the instant of conception, they are a person, since the fertilized egg will eventually become a reasoning person.

    IF the fertilized egg is not yet a person, then there MUST be some point where it becomes a person. In order for abortion to be moral (and not the killing of a person), then you must perform the procedure before the human tissue becomes a person. What point is this? I do not know, nor do I think this point can be proven. Viability? The age of viability is different for every fetus. You cannot guess at viability...but I guess viability for babies who are aborted is practically zero... When the heart beats? What is the heart is unable to beat by itself because of defect, but the baby would otherwise survive? If you are pro-abortion, then you must know the magic point...otherwise you are potentially killing innocent people...which I hope we all agree is wrong.

    If you assume that the moment of conception is the point at which human tissue becomes a person, you will never accidentally kill a person. I want to be a moral person. If there is a such a magic point...and it is not at conception...then please alert me to it, because prior to this moment, abortion is (by this argument) morally okay. But to kill an innocent person is wrong...no matter what the circumstances, and not a risk I am willing to take.

    Is abortion wrong for me? Yes. Is abortion wrong for every other woman? Unless they are certain of the instant a fetus becomes a person, and do the procedure prior to that momant, yes.

    Any critiques of this argument?
  8. by   Justus
    PegRNBSN- you hit the nail on the head.
    Also, I am mystified by pro-choicers that claim there is nothing wrong with abortion & that in some way it "saves lives".Lets see , maybe if they practiced abstinence or actually used birth control and safe sex measures then just maybe there wouldn't be so many poor little women having to make this "difficult" decision. Like I said in my first post, there are extreme cases where this must be done- strictly medical. Getting lost in the heat of the moment should not qualify. Frankly I feel that those frequeant flyers should consider sterilization. I'm not joking.
    LisaCaNurse2b - I can completely relate to your first post and agree. I think it is max unfortunate that you felt the need to apologize for your opinions just as I feel for the nurse that felt the need to hide her identity.
    This isssue hits very close to home. I know 2 women who have gone through this procedure, one who had an abortion to hide the fact that she had an affair and whom has never got over the abortion mentally or physically. The other had 6 last year -3 the year before because she "doesn't ever want kids", "hates them".PLUS I was told I should abort my last child because of severe epilepsy, I was shown what could possibly happen to my child and even told what would. I am happy to say it was my most uneventful pregnancy,perfectly healthy child who is in advanced reading and math classes. So far I have resisted the urge to walze him right up to the idots that gave me all that fine advice.
    Last edit by Justus on May 4, '04
  9. by   Justus
    Quote from Laura2000mi
    "If I'm on call and they call my home, I get up at 3am, kiss my kids and drive in to assist in a D and C, or a D and E. They call, I answer. There are plenty of nurses who are willing to get out of bed to help."

    But do you assist for free? ......

    Any critiques of this argument?
    :hatparty:Excellent! Very well said!
    Last edit by Justus on May 4, '04
  10. by   tntrn
    I do not get the "if it's a right, then it must be free" line of thinking. Some in this country think all medical care is a right. But none if it is free. There are costs at some level. Even the freedom we enjoy this country has come at a very high cost.

    Some think a college education is the right of every student. But free? Get real.

    The freedom in getting an abortion comes with freedom from judgment, freedom to get the proper medical help, freedom from public ridicule (which doesn't happen when the clinics have the protesters lined up in front harrassing those who enter it, regardless of why they are going there), freedom to make the choice and not have it made for you.

    And not all little masses of "human tissue" will have the ability to reason in the future. Ever seen an ancephalic baby?
  11. by   fergus51
    Free or not has nothing to do with it being a right or not. I live in Canada and every citizen has the legal right to healthcare. Our health act is specific on that point. That doesn't mean that doctors and nurses don't get a paycheck for their work.

    Justus, I understand what you're saying. If people were more careful there would be less unwanted pregnancies and less abortions which everyone would agree is a good thing. Unfortunately, I can't make my beliefs based on the "if". I believe in making birth control accessible and giving people the tools to prevent pregnancy. Realistically, I know it will never eliminate unwanted pregnancies and any law outlawing abortion would be unpractical, unenforceable and riddled with problems.
  12. by   Laura2000mi
    Quote from tntrn
    I do not get the "if it's a right, then it must be free" line of thinking. Some in this country think all medical care is a right. But none if it is free. There are costs at some level. Even the freedom we enjoy this country has come at a very high cost.

    Some think a college education is the right of every student. But free? Get real.

    The freedom in getting an abortion comes with freedom from judgment, freedom to get the proper medical help, freedom from public ridicule (which doesn't happen when the clinics have the protesters lined up in front harrassing those who enter it, regardless of why they are going there), freedom to make the choice and not have it made for you.

    And not all little masses of "human tissue" will have the ability to reason in the future. Ever seen an ancephalic baby?
    Basically, in ethics, the definition of a right is "something that someone is entitled to that noone can withhold from you". If you have a right to healthcare, they must give it to you, even if you cannot pay (therefore making it free). If you have the right to an education, it also must be free. That is why in ethics, there are no positive rights. There is only one right which we all have: the right to be left alone. which is a negative right. Any positive right (the right to healthcare for example) would infringe on another's negative rights (the right of the healthcare provider to be left alone). The only right that everyone can exercise at the same time is the right to be left alone, and can therefore be the only right anyone can have. Sorry if I am not able to articulate this very well...

    The freedom of choice issue does not hold up very well with me. Why should women have the choice to do something immoral? If you can prove that abortion is moral, then I would be fine with it. Women do not have the choice to legally kill a grown person because it is wrong, so why should they have the choice to legally kill a baby if it is wrong?

    Regarding your last sentence about the little masses of human tissue...my definition of abortion is the killing of a person in the womb. If the mass of tissue will never become a person (will never gain the ability to reason)because of some defect (I am not familiar with the condition you quoted), I would not consider that abortion. That would be removal of human tissue.
    Last edit by Laura2000mi on May 4, '04
  13. by   sbic56
    Quote from PegRNBSN
    I used the term 16 week baby because that is how we referred to the baby when the patient and I spoke. She strongly felt it was a baby, when the baby delivered it looked like a baby and she would have been deeply offended had I had called it her fetus. Point being for those who want their babies they are truly a small human life. Yes they are not equivalent to a full term baby but they are babies to their mothers.
    Thanks for the clarification. I agree...whatever mom says, goes with me, too.

    Editted to say: At 16 weeks, it is a fetus, but as a nurse I know my patients beliefs reign supreme over my own.
    Last edit by sbic56 on May 4, '04

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