The Circumcision Discussion - page 72

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. by   Joe12
    Quote from vashtee
    I think the problem is that different agencies make different statements about the benefits of circumcision. Here is the CDC site:
    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/fac...rcumcision.htm

    Just so you know, as the mother of a daughter, I say ANY amount of preventable cervical cancer is too much.
    If the CDC is saying the reduction in penile cancer is a benefit of circumcision they'd be about the only group that says as much, though I wouldn't be surprised. The problem is that most benefits, if they exist, are trivial or can be easily realized using less invasive, more effective, and safer means. Most other western countries have recognized that, it's hard to understand why we are always behind. In fact, most of the research that tries to ferret out circumcision benefits is fund by the US. One would think that after 100 years enough would be enough.

    In any case, as to the cervical cancer specifically, I understand your position and that is why I don't believe that cost of the vaccine should be much of an issue, I am just pointing out that many people have made convincing arguments with regard to its cost benefit. Indecently, Merck has made an application to the FDA to recommend the cervical vaccine for boys too. However, even if there was not a vaccine the numbers wouldn't justify circumcision the ethical bar to perform a circumcision [or any other medical/surgical procedure] via proxy consent should be very high and to perform it for the benefit of another it should be obscenely high. No current purported benefit, even if you believe the current figures, comes close. They only serve to buttress previously held cultural or religious excuses. It's a convenient way for the various agencies to avoid confronting the significant ethical issues.
    Last edit by Joe12 on Jan 31, '09
  2. by   JanisM
    The only reason I can see for circumcision is to make parents happy. I refused to mutilate my boys and their father is also 'intact'. Of course they were taught strict hygiene-they would have whether or not they were circumcised.
  3. by   k-t-did
    I don't have time to read all the discussions...but I will give you my experience. I watched my son's circumcision.

    he was strapped to the circ board, but he was sleeping and did not wake. They warmed it prior.

    My OB did the procedure, and numbed the area with a local. He began pushing the med. before pricking the skin, so that it numbed on its way in.

    i could not see the nuts and bolts b/c of where I stood, but what I DID see was that my son did not wake up during the procedure. He slept through it. I have a hard time getting people to believe me, but I saw it with my own eyes. He sucked his little syringe of glucose during the procedure and did not cry until he was woken up to be re-swaddled, then went right back to sleep.
  4. by   k-t-did
    I refused to mutilate my boys

    and frankly,I think inflammatory language like this is uncalled for on a board for medical professionals.
  5. by   ElvishDNP
    It may be inflammatory....but there are people who believe that cutting off a piece of healthy, normally-functioning tissue is just that. If you would call removing the clitoral hood of a woman mutilation, why is the exact same procedure, done on a boy, any different?

    I am obviously anti-circ, but it's because I have seen so many circs and really believe that, even with all the pain control in the world, they are still unnecessarily cruel. That may be a strong word but no medical association in the world recommends it, yet we continue to do it.
  6. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from k-t-did
    I don't have time to read all the discussions...but I will give you my experience. I watched my son's circumcision.

    he was strapped to the circ board, but he was sleeping and did not wake. They warmed it prior.

    My OB did the procedure, and numbed the area with a local. He began pushing the med. before pricking the skin, so that it numbed on its way in.

    i could not see the nuts and bolts b/c of where I stood, but what I DID see was that my son did not wake up during the procedure. He slept through it. I have a hard time getting people to believe me, but I saw it with my own eyes. He sucked his little syringe of glucose during the procedure and did not cry until he was woken up to be re-swaddled, then went right back to sleep.

    I've seen many circumcisions as an OB nurse in a small rural hospital. And I've seen exactly what you've described many many times.

    Having said that - I do NOT think it is necessary to circ baby boys. However, all 3 of mine are circ'd due to their fathers. (My two oldest have a different dad than my youngest - due to divorce). Both men insisted on circumcision - the first one was the hardest - we argued throughout my pregnancy and for the 3 days after he was born until I finally signed the papers, crying. I made him watch with our second son and he thought it was "cool". My second husband also insisted on circing our son.

    This has been said by me on this long long thread . .but both my adult sons, when asked, are HAPPY they are circ'd and both said they would be very angry with me if I had won that argument.

    Lots of differences of opinon on this issue - my take is let each family decide. With the proper education first of course. One of our docs does not use lidocaine . . . . . I refused to help him. And he usually didn't tell the parents. I made sure they got instructions prior to ask certain questions . .like "what kind of pain control do you use?".

    steph
  7. by   Spidey's mom
    Remembering that I'm not in favor of circumcision . . . I think "mutilate" is a bit over the top.

    steph
  8. by   ElvishDNP
    Why is it over the top? Why do we call it one thing on boys and another on girls? Not every woman who's been cut feels they have been 'mutilated' either. There was a great article in AWHONN's Nursing for Women's Health about a year or two ago, and it alluded to that.

    I'm not saying we need string up parents by their toenails who had their sons circed...I'm just saying we as a society need to take a long hard look at why we are doing this to newborn boys. This goes double for people in healthcare, we who are supposed to be practicing evidence-based everything.

    (I know you and I have had this conversation in many many different threads, Steph...and this is not directed at you. ) My 4yo happened across a picture of a recently circed baby - not even crying - but with the gauze stuck to his penis, and asked me what that was on the baby's pito. (Much as you, I've tried to get him to call it a penis, and Daddy's word wins.) I told him that the doctor had cut some skin off - not a lot more detail than that - and he got this freaked-out look on his face and said, "They're not gonna cut my pito, are they?" If you guys had been in Europe, it might be likely that your boys would be mad at your dh for having won the argument.

    I just really don't understand circumcision at all.
  9. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from elvish
    why is it over the top? why do we call it one thing on boys and another on girls? not every woman who's been cut feels they have been 'mutilated' either. there was a great article in awhonn's nursing for women's health about a year or two ago, and it alluded to that.

    i'm not saying we need string up parents by their toenails who had their sons circed...i'm just saying we as a society need to take a long hard look at why we are doing this to newborn boys. this goes double for people in healthcare, we who are supposed to be practicing evidence-based everything.

    (i know you and i have had this conversation in many many different threads, steph...and this is not directed at you. ) my 4yo happened across a picture of a recently circed baby - not even crying - but with the gauze stuck to his penis, and asked me what that was on the baby's pito. (much as you, i've tried to get him to call it a penis, and daddy's word wins.) i told him that the doctor had cut some skin off - not a lot more detail than that - and he got this freaked-out look on his face and said, "they're not gonna cut my pito, are they?" if you guys had been in europe, it might be likely that your boys would be mad at your dh for having won the argument.

    i just really don't understand circumcision at all.

    i'm agreeing with you on everything! except the tone of the mutilation post.

    and i know my boys and husband/ex-husband are only saying the things they do because, right now, they are the "normal" looking ones and the guys with an intact penis are "odd-looking". i think that is changing of course. more parents opt out of circing. which i would have done if i could have won the argument.

    but criticizing those of us who did have our boys circ'd . . .by posting the following is not fair. (i added the red).

    "i refused to mutilate my boys"


    it is like the breastfeeding nazi's coming down on the formula feeding moms with their eye-rolling condescension . .. that formula is abuse because you are not allowing your child to have the natural benefits of breastmilk.

    (remember - i'm a huge believer in breastfeeding and i breastfed my kids to toddler-hood). :d

    i just don't think remarks like that do much to further the discussion. would you tell a jewish family they are mutilating their baby during a bris milah? it is a holy event - to them.

    [color=#003399]the word bris means covenant; the word milah, to cut.
    ritual circumcision is the covenant g-d has established with the jewish people through the commandment of circumcision.
    [color=#003399]bris milah
    judaism views body and soul as holy partners in serving g-d. therefore, the bris is performed on the most physical part, for all of man is holy before his creator. bris milah joins the forces of body and soul together in serving g-d.




    steph
    Last edit by Spidey's mom on Feb 21, '09
  10. by   ElvishDNP
    Would you tell a Muslim family that they are mutilating their little girl? It may be their way of welcoming their daughter into their community, or part of their religion's way being right before their God.

    Why we allow one and not the other is something I do not understand, no matter how many arguments I have heard. I just don't.

    Just asking.
    Circumcision alone, in the absence of the brit milah ceremony, does not fulfill the requirements of the mitzvah
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah
    Very interesting link. Ok, now I really have to get ready for work.
  11. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from Elvish
    Would you tell a Muslim family that they are mutilating their little girl? It may be their way of welcoming their daughter into their community, or part of their religion's way being right before their God.

    Why we allow one and not the other is something I do not understand, no matter how many arguments I have heard. I just don't.

    Just asking.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah
    Very interesting link. Ok, now I really have to get ready for work.

    Well . .... my best guess would be that people see a difference in the physical act of circumcision of what happens to girls in Muslim countries.

    (I'm supposed to be mopping floors . . . )


    steph
  12. by   ElvishDNP
    But why, when the physical act may be much the same? That's what I don't understand. I think when people think of FGC, they imagine the most severe form, and it seems they think of circumcision of boys as just a little snip. It's not. (I know you know all this...I'm just saying.)

    Most circs here aren't done because parents are Jewish or Muslim....so for the US in terms of religious circumcision, we're talking a really small number. Again, I know none of this is news to you...

    I just hate it all.

    (And no, I wouldn't march into someone's room and tell them what a horrible parent they are for 'mutilating' their son. I agree that's not the best way to have a productive, enlightening conversation. But I'm not a nurse taking care of patients right now...I'm really trying to understand why people continue to do this, and I can't.)

    Ok. For real...off to put on my face for work.
  13. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from elvish
    but why, when the physical act may be much the same? that's what i don't understand. i think when people think of fgc, they imagine the most severe form, and it seems they think of circumcision of boys as just a little snip. it's not. (i know you know all this...i'm just saying.)

    most circs here aren't done because parents are jewish or muslim....so for the us in terms of religious circumcision, we're talking a really small number. again, i know none of this is news to you...

    i just hate it all.

    (and no, i wouldn't march into someone's room and tell them what a horrible parent they are for 'mutilating' their son. i agree that's not the best way to have a productive, enlightening conversation. but i'm not a nurse taking care of patients right now...i'm really trying to understand why people continue to do this, and i can't.)

    ok. for real...off to put on my face for work. :d
    since even the small "cut" on a woman takes away her ability to come to orgasm . .that is different i guess.

    this argument shouldn't be between us . . . we agree for the most part.

    my only comment should be on the intolerant kinda mean comment that we parents who do choose to circ are not good parents . . .and that is how some of us took that ""i refused to mutilate my boys"?

    let's not insult each other. that's all.

    steph

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