The Circumcision Discussion - page 38

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. by   Tweety
    Quote from anagray
    mojo, i am not sure why one would quote an opinion of some unknown person ( and a very insulting opinion i should add) to prove that circumcion is good.

    i grew up in a country where men are not circumcised and i never had any problems with any of my partners regarding hygeine. my husband is circumcised but our son isn't and i personally find it offensive when people say (or quote) insulting things regarding circumcision.


    and just to add on a subject of hpv, before i came to the us i had a clean bill of health, but i was infected with hpv by a circumcised partner here, in us. i honestly believe that the main cause of any std is unprotectd sex, not whether one has a foreskin or not.

    i'm not particularly passionate about this topic one way or another, and i'm not easily offended by anything in this thread. however, can i give a high five, amen, you go girl! for the highlighted sentence above.
  2. by   Blessed2BeMommy
    My first husband was not circ'd. I found out when I had my oldest son that neither was my father. (Thanks mom, like I needed to know that.) Neither my ex nor my dad are upset about not being circ'd, nor have they had any problems.

    My current husband was circ'd. He has expressed the feeling that he wishes he had been left alone as a baby.

    My older brother was circ'd. I don't think he really cares either way, but my mother said that he was a different baby after the circ and she regretted doing it. (I am sure he recovered from the trauma, but my mom is a very sensitive person, so I think it was interesting that she noted that he took a couple of days to "recover" from the experience.)

    My boys were not circ'd. I simply didn't see the point. If either boy had had such an excessive amount of foreskin that I felt it was medically prudent to have them circ'd, I would have had it done as a Bris, the Jewish ceremony. I think it's less traumatic for a child to be held in the arms of someone who loves them, fed a small amount of wine, and then circ'd by someone who has done thousands of circs than to have some of the pediatric residents I know attmepting it while baby is strapped to a cold plastic board.

    I did witness a circ during nursing school because I wanted to know firsthand what happened. I had been involved in many surgical procedures as a tech and had worked as a patient care tech for five years, I am not easily upset, and this upset me. I was very glad I had not circ'd my boys.

    Just to add, ritual circumcision in Jewish tradition was NOT the complete removal of the foreskin. It was more of nick.... it was designed so that every time a man had to go to the bathroom he would be reminded that he belonged to God. Complete removal of the foreskin did not come about until WWII, as has been previously mentioned... and it started with the gentiles, not the Jews. The practice did spread to Jewish practice as well, but even so I see less severe cuts in boys who were ritually circ'd than those who were medically circ'd. (I work in peds.)

    I in no way look down on someone who circ'd their boys, but I would hope they had a better rationale than "so it looks like Daddy". C'mon.... a little boy's penis is NOT going to look like the penis of a grown man... and when Jr. is grown up, he's not going to WANT his penis to look like his aging father's!

    As for locker room... wouldn't a guy get more grief for paying attention to what another guy's penis looks like than the guy who was or was not circ'd and was commented about????
  3. by   GardenDove
    Quote from june-pearl
    Oh, there are animals that eat their young alive.
    I thought that was nurses who did that
  4. by   Spidey's mom
    Quote from GardenDove
    I thought that was nurses who did that
    Nope - the members here at Allnurses.com have declared that to be a very old wives' tale . . . .

    steph
  5. by   ann945n
    Just an interesting thought here, some people are saying that circumcision is forcing ones beliefs on another person (the little boy). So by that stand point should we not raise our children in our religion or make them go to church or tell them no to have pre marital sex? I just dont see the difference. Let people raise their kids as they wish vaccination circumcision religion whatever its all personal choice who are we to judge? Is it painful? I would guess so since they do scream but so is getting shots or somepeople spank their kids which also hurts... just my two cents but ill be circumcising my little boys, wouldnt have it any other way, why? my families personal preference.
  6. by   KellNY
    Quote from ann945n
    Just an interesting thought here, some people are saying that circumcision is forcing ones beliefs on another person (the little boy). So by that stand point should we not raise our children in our religion or make them go to church or tell them no to have pre marital sex? I just dont see the difference. Let people raise their kids as they wish......ill be circumcising my little boys, wouldnt have it any other way, why? my families personal preference.
    The reasoning behind this has been adressed many times. When you cut off a piece of someones penis-THEY CAN NEVER CHANGE THAT. My parents raised me Christian. I was able to change that. They raised me to wait till marriage to have sex, I decided differently for myself. They raised me

    Had they removed my clitoral hood-I would not have been able to correct, alter, modify or change that. I would have had no say in a matter that would effect me forever.

    So there's a BIG difference. It's not even apples and oranges. More like apples and..I don't know-Chevrolets. No similarities at all. (For the record, I do not believe in violence against children, and this includes hitting them)

    And it makes me sad that your families personal preference trumps that of your son. I wish you wouldn't, but I still believe that to be your choice-so who's trying to take away your rights? No one here, so get over it.
  7. by   ann945n
    Quote from KellNY
    The reasoning behind this has been adressed many times. When you cut off a piece of someones penis-THEY CAN NEVER CHANGE THAT. My parents raised me Christian. I was able to change that. They raised me to wait till marriage to have sex, I decided differently for myself. They raised me

    Had they removed my clitoral hood-I would not have been able to correct, alter, modify or change that. I would have had no say in a matter that would effect me forever.

    So there's a BIG difference. It's not even apples and oranges. More like apples and..I don't know-Chevrolets. No similarities at all. (For the record, I do not believe in violence against children, and this includes hitting them)

    And it makes me sad that your families personal preference trumps that of your son. I wish you wouldn't, but I still believe that to be your choice-so who's trying to take away your rights? No one here, so get over it.
    Wow no reason to get rude with me please just stating my opinion, and yes a guy can never grow back his foreskin but he also cannot un-do vaccines or pain caused from spanking or the years he was forced to go to a church he didnt believe in. Im just saying there are many things people do for their children that are always done in their best interest. Its a personal choice that people make for their kids just like where to go to school or where to live ect. Just because someone doesnt agree with ones parenting technique or parenting choice doesnt give anyone the right to tell them they are wrong or to force parents not to do something they see as a better option for their child.
  8. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from mo-mo
    In parts of Africa, girls are routinely circumcised, it's a Muslim practice. . All or most of the external genitalia is removed.
    If you think about it, probably these women have a slightly lower incidence of bladder infections and STDs: The labia, if proper hygiene isn't used, could harbor bacteria and viruses. Sans clitorus, a girl may not put her dirty hands in the area as often as a girl with an intact clit...

    Male and female circumcision are related because it's the same practice. Different sex and different motives, of course.

    Sigh....
    What you are referring to as female circumcision is actually genital mutilation and has no reasonable comparison whatsoever to the circumcision performed on males.

    Reputable medical care groups will tell you that what you are referring to as female "circumcision" and what is done "in Africa" is actually closer to having the entire head of the penis/entire penis amputated off, and much much more extreme that removing the foreskin of a male.

    It is not a minor procedure but a major lifethreatening mutilation.

    In addition, virtually every major world health organization will tell you that female genital mutilation leads to an extreme rise in infection and an excessively high maternal mortality and morbidity rate in the affected females. This has been documented in numerous studies.

    I have cathed women that have had various forms of this done and the damage and infection is frightening. There are numerous MDs and NPs trying in Africa to stop this awful practice, and are trying to correct damage done from this by doing reconstruction. Young girls with fistulas, especially rectovaginal fistulas are common. Often they are divorced and then outcasts due to these issues.

    Not to mention young girls that had to be "cut open" on their wedding nights - and got lifethreatening illness from this....I somehow think that stats for damage from that outnumber minor illnesses from intact women "handling themselves".

    One does not have to like or dislike male circumcision. But it is not medically appropriate to compare male circumcision to removing all of the woman's external genitalia (and in some cases more than that). Nor does it have nearly the harmful consequences.
    Last edit by caroladybelle on Mar 12, '07 : Reason: poor spelling
  9. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from ann945n
    Wow no reason to get rude with me please just stating my opinion, and yes a guy can never grow back his foreskin but he also cannot un-do vaccines or pain caused from spanking or the years he was forced to go to a church he didnt believe in. Im just saying there are many things people do for their children that are always done in their best interest. Its a personal choice that people make for their kids just like where to go to school or where to live ect. Just because someone doesnt agree with ones parenting technique or parenting choice doesnt give anyone the right to tell them they are wrong or to force parents not to do something they see as a better option for their child.
    No one (including myself) is attacking you. I personally find your logic lacking. As KellyRN said, you are compaing apples to Chevrolets.

    I do not believe temporary situations (spanking, attending a church, or where one goes to school) can possibly be compared to a permanent decision such as circumcision, or other body modifications.

    You are correct that a parent would make decisions about schooling or housing. But how many people would say it's OK to have your child's ears removed?

    For the people who keep saying they wouldn't sleep with an intact man because of the looks, etc. My point is that if ALL men were intact (ie, left the way they were born) there wouldn't be any issues with looks. All men would look the same. You wouldn't be able to state a preference because you'd only know one way. The intact way.

    Finally, men who have a problem with circumcision are not complaining about the pain (which is frequently brought up in this thread). I certainly don't remember it, and I doubt anyone does. That isn't the issue. The issue is the permanent and irreversible loss of the foreskin. While it's true that there are some restoration methods, the loss of nerves is irreversible.

    That's my issue with it anyway.
  10. by   ayla2004
    during a student placement my pre-op 19yr day surgery patient fainted
    before his circumison and came to the nurses station to tell us.

    also had a 22yr old seem ver nervous not surpisely but in the UK these are not routinely performed on neonates only when medical need
  11. by   ann945n
    Quote from mvanz9999
    No one (including myself) is attacking you. I personally find your logic lacking. As KellyRN said, you are compaing apples to Chevrolets.

    I do not believe temporary situations (spanking, attending a church, or where one goes to school) can possibly be compared to a permanent decision such as circumcision, or other body modifications.

    You are correct that a parent would make decisions about schooling or housing. But how many people would say it's OK to have your child's ears removed?

    For the people who keep saying they wouldn't sleep with an intact man because of the looks, etc. My point is that if ALL men were intact (ie, left the way they were born) there wouldn't be any issues with looks. All men would look the same. You wouldn't be able to state a preference because you'd only know one way. The intact way.

    Finally, men who have a problem with circumcision are not complaining about the pain (which is frequently brought up in this thread). I certainly don't remember it, and I doubt anyone does. That isn't the issue. The issue is the permanent and irreversible loss of the foreskin. While it's true that there are some restoration methods, the loss of nerves is irreversible.

    That's my issue with it anyway.
    Personally i think compairing circumcision with cutting off ones ears is compairing apples to chevrolets. So then are you against vaccinations? Since that is not reversible. And personally when someone says to you "get over it" i find that rude.
    Last edit by ann945n on Mar 11, '07
  12. by   Spidey's mom
    Speaking of ears and things people do to their kids . . can we talk about earrings in infant's ears.

    I just walked into the living room and said to my husband . ."What if you found out that with your foreskin you would have had even more sensation and pleasure than without it, would you then have not wanted to be circumcised?" . . . . he looked at me for a moment, asked if our dd was anywhere near and then said quietly "well, all that would happen is that I would "go off" 10 minutes earlier. . . . ".

    He doesn't see the need to worry about something that happened a long time ago . . . he does understand people educating themselves about it before they circumcise their own sons.

    He would still have a circ and would still have our son circ'd.

    I don't think ann's comments are apples vs. chevrolets . . . . there are things we chose to do parents that people shouldn't judge us for. Like choosing circumcision. Or not vaccinating.

    Even though I myself would not have chosen circumcision for my boys. Even though I don't understand not vaccinating a child against polio, measles, mumps, rubella, etc.

    I don't judge those who do the opposite of me.

    steph
  13. by   58flyer
    Quote from Blessed2BeMommy
    .) As for locker room... wouldn't a guy get more grief for paying attention to what another guy's penis looks like than the guy who was or was not circ'd and was commented about????
    Funny you brought this up. This is exactly what I thought when I read this and other circ threads.

    I didn't start showering with other guys until Jr High and we got into athletics. Before that elementary schools didn't have locker rooms and showers, and may not have still. It didnt occur to me that other males might look different "down there." I thought we all had the same thing. So it was a learning experience the first time I saw an uncirc'd guy. Then we learned about circumcision, how some guys were and some guys weren't. Most of us were.

    It just never occurred to me or my classmates to make fun of the guys who weren't circ'd. This was in the late 60's, and gays were still in the closet. They were referred to as "queers" or "faggots". If you made fun of another guy's penis, it meant that you looked at it. And if you looked, you must be one of those "queers". Why else would you be looking?

    I grew up on the westside of the Big Southern City. It could be rough, but not in the criminal sort of way. It was just rednecky, lots of Navy families around, and a lot of blue collar families. In a word, conservative. You didn't dare allow yourself to be thought of as a "queer" in that crowd. If you went around talking about another guy's penis, you'd better have your hiking boots on, 'cause it was a long walk down a$$whip lane.

    Consequently, NO ONE made fun of any uncircumcised guys. It would be a fate worse than death.

    Personally, I am circumcised. I don't remember it. I don't miss the loss of some foreskin since I can't remember having it. Sex is great and the wife LOVES it. So did all the girlfriends before her. :wink2:

    On a side note (TMI ALERT), when flaccid the glans retracts behind what foreskin I still have so I haven't lost any sensitivity. If I "get there" before she is ready, we can do other intimate stuff and pillow talk and give my system time to recover and then round 2 lasts much longer. The early arrival mode is great for quickies and doing an intake, you military vets know what that is. (TMI ALERT OVER).

    For personal hygiene and cleanliness, a shower or bath once a day and I have never had any problems. First, a once over with a wash cloth and soap and then, just to be sure, I give it a second go with the bar soap and bare hands, that cloth can be a little rough on the sensitive skin.

    One other thing. I've noticed that a lot of females have commented on how boys are circ'd so they look like dad.... In my experience, I don't recall that particular issue ever mentioned.

    Finally, if I am ever blessed to be the father of a boy, I am not sure if I will go with circumcision or not. The wife is in favor of it. The way I see it, whether you circ or not, you are still making a decision for the child. If he is favor of it later, he will wish you had had it done while he was an infant.
    Last edit by 58flyer on Mar 12, '07 : Reason: spellin

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