The Circumcision Discussion - page 15

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. by   Katnip
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Unofficial Anecdotal Poll of my 17 yr old son:

    "You're discussing THAT online? . . . Mine, specifically????"

    Followed (after a few faces of disgust) with a sheepish: "I don't care, I'm just glad I don't remember it."

    I'll take that as validation of BOTH my right as a parent to make an informed decision AND the timing of said decision.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    I've asked both my boys if they felt cheated that they were circumcised. I got the same eye rolling and faces, and was told the same thing.

    I only have one son left, but he continues to maintain that he does not feel deprived in any way and he doesn't remember it so can't say how he felt about it at the time.
  2. by   RN mom of 2
    Quote from MLOS
    Any psych nurses reading this? I'm at a loss to properly dx this all-encompassing focus on genitalia. I have no idea who James Spence is/was ... but after reading his view that "Nature" considers the brain and stomach to be "less essential" organs ... I don't feel the need to supplement my knowledge of him.

    mvans ... I hope you have sought appropriate treatment. I am familiar with a large number of amputees who are less conflicted about losing one or more limbs, w/life-altering consequences, as adults, than you seem to be about the removal of foreskin as an infant.
    I think your statement to mavans is extremely arrogant. It's very disrespectful of you to advise him to seek treatment for something that he feels was taken from him that was rightly his. He didn't say he lies in bed all day long unable to function because of it. He just understands the injustice that was done to him as a newborn and is not pretending it doesn't matter. Are you intact? If so, you could never put yourself in his shoes. If not, then maybe this is your way of not looking at the reality of what was taken from you? If it doesn't affect you I'm happy for you, but don't judge another person for how it affects them. Most amputees became this way do to something traumatic that occurred, forcing the removal of a body part, in order to save their lives. Please do not compare it to circ'ing. Circ'ing is NOT done because something traumatic happened, and it's not done to save a life. Circ'ing is the trauma. I'm not saying losing a body part isn't a tragedy, but it has nothing to do with a discussion about circ'ing.

    I think the point he (Spence) was trying to make, is that the propagation of the species is what drives mankind. Bringing up the brain and the stomach was, I assume, his way of driving this point home. Obviously, those organs are important, especially one being vital, but he is trying to stress the importance of the genitalia as our means of procreating. He figures that nature knew what she was doing when she created the genitals, since they are the means to keeping mankind on this Earth. I would agree with this, in that one of the foreskin's functions is protecting the sensitive glans, so that it doesn't become desensitized. Do you realize that the U.S. is the main consumer of Viagra? I find this interesting considering the circ rate here is so high. I have always found this correlation rather interesting.
  3. by   Jelli_Belli
    Why is it that the only response for circumcision that we are hearing is "Oh well I had my son circumcised and when I asked him he didn't mind." Come on now, are you serious?
    I imagine if you asked victims of female genital mutilation in Africa if they "minded" the procedure, they would tell you no. They are products of social conditioning. They are taught to believe it is a necessary procedure.
    The same applies to males. Parents of circumcised children obviously believe it is the right thing to do, and they indoctrinate their children with that same belief. I doubt anyone has ever explained what was lost during that procedure to them and they will never understand because they won't know what they lost. They can't miss something that they never had, but that doesn't mean that they never needed it in the first place.
    Just because a circumcised child doesn't think that he "misses" his foreskin later in life doesn't justify cutting it off as a child.
  4. by   Altra
    Quote from RN mom of 2
    I think the point he (Spence) was trying to make, is that the propagation of the species is what drives mankind. Bringing up the brain and the stomach was, I assume, his way of driving this point home. Obviously, those organs are important, especially one being vital, but he is trying to stress the importance of the genitalia as our means of procreating. He figures that nature knew what she was doing when she created the genitals, since they are the means to keeping mankind on this Earth. I would agree with this, in that one of the foreskin's functions is protecting the sensitive glans, so that it doesn't become desensitized. Do you realize that the U.S. is the main consumer of Viagra? I find this interesting considering the circ rate here is so high. I have always found this correlation rather interesting.

    You & I have some very different views, obviously, and that's OK. I completely disagree that "propogation of the species" is what drives mankind: my belief system holds that we humans are different than other mammals and we have the capability to be driven by intellectual, emotional and ethical motives far beyond the instinctual. In fact, we are the only species with the intellectual capacity to choose not to procreate.

    The "correlation" with Viagra and the U.S. that immediately jumps to my mind is the constant media attention given to sex, and the quirks of the practices of U.S. advertising that make awareness of Viagra & "ED" (cute name) a given for anyone who reads, views or listens to any mass media. That, and the cultural values of the huge bubble of baby boomers now turning 60 or thereabouts, with the typical "symptoms" of aging. The correlation is that culturally we don't deal well with aging in this country -- we are now treating age-related physical manifestations as "symptoms" to be cured. Enter Viagra ...

    But this is OT, and I don't want to hijack the thread.

    I have no illusion that anything I say will change your views on circumcision. That's OK too. But before you dismiss my language as arrogant, take another read of any one of your posts, or the website you provided a link for ... talk about inflammatory language ...
  5. by   RN mom of 2
    Quote from MLOS
    You & I have some very different views, obviously, and that's OK. I completely disagree that "propogation of the species" is what drives mankind: my belief system holds that we humans are different than other mammals and we have the capability to be driven by intellectual, emotional and ethical motives far beyond the instinctual. In fact, we are the only species with the intellectual capacity to choose not to procreate.

    The "correlation" with Viagra and the U.S. that immediately jumps to my mind is the constant media attention given to sex, and the quirks of the practices of U.S. advertising that make awareness of Viagra & "ED" (cute name) a given for anyone who reads, views or listens to any mass media. That, and the cultural values of the huge bubble of baby boomers now turning 60 or thereabouts, with the typical "symptoms" of aging. The correlation is that culturally we don't deal well with aging in this country -- we are now treating age-related physical manifestations as "symptoms" to be cured. Enter Viagra ...

    But this is OT, and I don't want to hijack the thread.

    I have no illusion that anything I say will change your views on circumcision. That's OK too. But before you dismiss my language as arrogant, take another read of any one of your posts, or the website you provided a link for ... talk about inflammatory language ...
    It may be wise for you to retake Biology 101. Yes, we have the ability to think before we act, but this does not change the hard wiring in our brains, especially when it comes to procreating. All species are driven to pass on their genes. You don't have to like it, but that's the reality. Why is it so hard to believe that men can have a healthy sex drive their entire lives? There's nothing wrong with that. In a marriage it's one of the ways to foster love and intimacy between a couple. A healthy sex life can give a person a sense of well being. There's nothing wrong with this. It's part of being a human being. I think there is a good chance that the penis is no longer functioning properly, because its source of protection has been cut away since birth. I'd say an area this sensitive would lose sensation after 50+ yrs rubbing up against underwear. Makes perfect sense to me.

    I am passionate about what I believe in when it comes to leaving boys intact. I feel someone needs to be, so it may as well be me. Sure, I get a lot of heat for it, but it's OK, because I believe in it so strongly. I'm not doing it for myself, but rather, for those without a voice. The people who are trying to change things in the world are the ones who take a lot of flack. If you go against what's accepted, you are a trouble maker in our world. It has always been this way, and I assume, always will be. I don't mind. I don't however, go around telling people they need psychological help, because they don't agree with what I think. That IMO, that is arrogant.

    What's wrong with supporting an organization that feels it's looking out for the rights of a child? I guess if you don't agree with their philosophy, it would be bothersome to you. There are many organizations that people belong to, this happens to be one of mine. I posted it so those who are interested could learn more about it. I didn't post it to make you personally upset.
  6. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from MLOS
    The "correlation" with Viagra and the U.S. that immediately jumps to my mind is the constant media attention given to sex, and the quirks of the practices of U.S. advertising that make awareness of Viagra & "ED" (cute name) a given for anyone who reads, views or listens to any mass media. ...
    I equate the popularity of ED drugs with not only mass media but circumcision itself. Research has shown that circumcised males report a significantly higher proportion of ED than do intact males. If we were to stop routinely circumcising our children, we would have much less of a need for ED drugs.
  7. by   Altra
    Quote from mvanz9999
    Research has shown that circumcised males report a significantly higher proportion of ED than do intact males.
    Can you provide a citation for the research which establishes this? I have zero experience w/male urology topics.
  8. by   jjjoy
    The topic here is about the potential of circumcision to decrease the spread HIV infection. Some clearly are of the opinion that it's much too drastic a procedure to ever do unless it's an acute emergency.

    Personally, if the evidence shows that it can significantly decrease transmission then I'm for adding it to the arsenal of HIV prevention strategies in countries where it's affecting large segments of the population. Behavioral prevention methods should always be encouraged, but if there's a permanent, more passive method also available it could really make an impact.

    I'm not saying circ'ing has NO downsides but it seems reasonable to consider circumcision as a potential means of stemming HIV infection in some areas.

    There have been some comparisons to female genital mutilation. Just FYI, according to the WHO, the most common type of FGM is excision of the clitoris and the labia minora.
  9. by   TiffyRN
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    The trauma of a circumcision for an infant pales in comparison to a slow painful death from AIDS.
    :yeahthat:

    In my opinion; that is what this thread should be discussing. We've done the circumcision thing to death on the OB/mother/baby site.

    Oh, and NICU nurse here; have seen literally dozens of circs. I've never seen a baby "pass out" from pain. And I'm sure the babies I've seen circ'd are far more fragile than the typical nursery infant. But, I digress, this is not the topic.
  10. by   porterwoman
    Wow, this conversation is quite....hmm, what's the word...occicentric?
    Best, everyone. Sharon, like smilingblueeyes said, thanks for that very concise and right-on analysis.
    Timothy, thanks for reminding me to get my head out of my day-to-day and look at the WHO website.
    Rebecca
  11. by   RN mom of 2
    Quote from TiffyRN
    :yeahthat:

    In my opinion; that is what this thread should be discussing. We've done the circumcision thing to death on the OB/mother/baby site.

    Oh, and NICU nurse here; have seen literally dozens of circs. I've never seen a baby "pass out" from pain. And I'm sure the babies I've seen circ'd are far more fragile than the typical nursery infant. But, I digress, this is not the topic.
    I'm really glad to hear this. Maybe your babies are treated better, because they are already in a fragile state? Do the docs wait until the local takes effect? I still don't think it's right even with proper use of anesthesia, it's just that the procedure is more humane. That is a very good thing. I'm curious to know if NICU nurses have to assist in a circ, even if they don't agree with it?

    I realize this topic was originally about HIV and circ'ing in Africa, but I think with a topic like circ'ing, one has to expect that it will take other turns. It's all part of the discussion, even if it's not the main topic. I actually find topics that take a few turns more interesting than most, but maybe that's just me?
  12. by   mvanz9999
    ^^^^^

    Exactly. My issue is with the end effect of the procedure, not the carrying out of procedure or whether there is anesthesia or not. I don't care about that, but the end result.
  13. by   RN mom of 2
    Quote from mvanz9999
    ^^^^^

    Exactly. My issue is with the end effect of the procedure, not the carrying out of procedure or whether there is anesthesia or not. I don't care about that, but the end result.
    Yes, I agree that the end result is the main issue.

    Since circs are still accepted and routinely performed, I feel it should be done as humanely as possible. Sadly, no one knows for sure what the pain level is, as we can not question a newborn, or show them a picture of the pain scale and ask them, which one are you? Due to this, pain relief should always be administered, and an ample amount of time should pass in order for the local to properly take effect. Some pain relief is always better than none.

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