Do you guys read birth plans? - page 4
I'm putting together a birth plan to give my OB in a couple of weeks. I had one for my first, but I never had a chance to give it to my OB when I PROMed @ 36 weeks. So I'm wondering, would I be... Read More
May 2, '02And furthermore, Mark, the day a man expells a baby from his body I will agree that birth is a joint effort for the couple --as you so inaptly put it.Last edit by Hardknox on May 2, '02
May 2, '02Originally posted by Hardknox
And furthermore, Mark, the day a man expells a baby from his body I will agree that birth is a joint effort for the couple --as you so inaptly put it.
May 3, '02to shay and hard knox you both sound very defensive, even hateful, could it be you are so upset because i am male? My head is not in my rectum shay but your old head most definitly is. You obviously have got something out of your rectum into your ears.I am not in a dream world AND NOT ONCE DID I SAY THINGS NEVER GO WRONG. I said that once you earn their trust and respect they are more likely to do what you ask.
Shay I never meant to offend anyone just my opinion just like you and mother baby rn did. I only said i was offended by her referal to the male (gender issue) she said it was because i am male. In real life a husband that is as controlling as she said would not want me around, they avoid conflict and cant control me, i also annoy them because when i see one like that i always take the mothers side.
hard knox I do not have to expell a baby from my body to know about birth. You do not know what it is like to be the husband of a women you love more than anything in the world in birth, to spend 9 months helping and worring about her, or to watch her be in pain etc. For all of your information it was my wife who gave birth and it was her that decided not to take pain meds. at one point I had begged her to take something but she did not want to so i did as she wished. by the way she is an rn also not just some hippy as you seem to like to think.
if i offended mother baby rn I am sorry it was never meant to be. CAN YOU SHAY AND HARD KNOX BE AS GROWN UP AND APPOLOGIZE FOR BEING FAR MORE UGLY AND INSULTING THAN I EVER COULDBE!Last edit by mark_LD_RN on May 3, '02
May 3, '02Ahhhhh...I see your delicate sensibilities WERE bothered. Well, Mark, if you think that defending mother/babyrn and her right to vent is unproffesional, so be it. You also think her feeling the way she does is 'judgemental.' Into thought crimes much?
And you most certainly DID imply that nothing ever goes wrong with your precious birth plan couples. Instead of saying something like, 'I'm sorry that happened to you, mother/babyrn. I on the other hand really enjoy taking care of birth plan couples. It's horrible that you had such an awful experience,' you condemn her for having a 'negative attitude.' Puleeze.
So no, I don't owe you any apology. And in the future, don't pm me nastygrams. Just say what you've got to say here, in the public forum, or don't say it at all. When one of our own needs support, she's going to get it as far as I'm concerned. You can stay in your ivory tower with your perfect nursing model, but for me, I'm going to support my co-workers and validate their frustrations instead of condemning them.Last edit by shay on May 3, '02
May 3, '02Shay , you are a very twisted hateful biased individual. and closed minded at that. I defend her right to an opinion just like anyone else. I am in no ivory tower and did not say non of my birth plan cuples go bad.i support al my coworkers weather or not we agree. YOU are a very ugly person to take and say such ugly untrue things about someone you dont even know. i did not condeem her for her negative attitude ,I simply stated what i have seen in several hospitals i work at. if mother baby has a problem she can let me know we are adults and should be able to discuss things as professsionals. unlike you whoo has to explode and belittle and insult one with a different view and one which never meant to insult anyone. I simply stated that my birth plan couples do better than most and feel a possitive attitude and a trusting relation ship go further with the couples. they deserve to be treated with respect.
the only part of my delicate sensibilities that were offended is you insinuating i dont know what i am talking about because i am male, and that i had my had stuck up my ass. the only one here with their head stuck up their ass is you the great and mighty nurse shay,.goddess and defender of all females.
you need to learn to behave like a professional and treat others with such. and again to mother baby rn, i meant no offense to you, and am sorry if you took it that way.
i see shay is not big enough to apollogize for her inappropriate outburst. she has obviously said it with malice. maybe you just been a nurse to long or something.
May 3, '02I merely stated a fact. The woman goes through the pain of labor. The man does not. There is not a gender issue---it is a biological fact. Do you mean to tell me when my husband had a brain tumor removed it was a joint effort at his surgery just because I supported him , encouraged him, and took care of him post op? I think not. There is no need to get nasty and play the gender card.
And, like Shay, I do not want anymore pm nastygrams.:kissLast edit by Hardknox on May 3, '02
May 3, '02When I get a couple with a birth plan I try to conciously relax when I go in the room and make a point of discussing their wishes on the first meeting. I bring up any concerns I might have and ask if they have talked to their MD about that part of the plan. Then I say something like if "thus and such" happens then we will do this because....how does that sound to you?
They usually are OK when they know that we will deviate only if there is a threat to the baby or mom. And I make a point of going through parts that I think are great, like showing them the squat bar, or explaining how we will tackle the monitering issue. I go in with the idea that we talk about what they want...and if they refuse to talk I need to explain that I am part of the team and need to know the plan if something happens that is not included in the written birth plan, so I can follow their wishes. I've never had an issue that couldn't be resolved, although I may be just lucky.
I know nurses that go in and explain "it is policy that..." have less success because they don't tell them the "why" for the policy.
And couples are almost always disappointed and angry when things happen against their wishes, but I make sure to talk with them after the crisis and say it's too bad things didn't go their way, do they understand why we deviated from what we had agreed on?
I think alot of the more inflexible plans are the product of an inflexible system at the last birth. So if I show we will work together things get alot easier on both sides.
May 3, '02I absolutely do not have a problem with "birth plan couples". I have assisted with and witnessed many beautiful births by well-prepared mothers and their partners.
My issue was that a father threatened me because I refused to follow HIS, not his wife's wishes, and refused to provide sub-standard nursing care (denying REQUESTED pain medication).
I have seen too many parents get so caught up in their birth plan that they can't see the forest for the trees, and forget that the ultimate goal of the exercise is a healthy mother and baby. I've had parents refuse a transfer to a tertiary care center because they didn't want to give up the Jacuzzi and entertainment center, for God's sake!
May 3, '02well hardknox a brain tumor and birthing a baby are quite different things and situation. and according to jcaho we are to care for the family as well as the patient. but with birth it is a joint effort for most couples.sorry you do not see it that way. but i guess you can not see from the other half of the couples side. admitted not all couples are like this.but with a normal couple you dont know what the man feels and as usual you could probably care less about him( to quote an earlier post "because this is the one area women still control").
I only took offense to the gender issue and bring it up because you did. I do not see it as a prequalification to have an opinion. and definitely do not like to be made fun off or insulted tag team style as you and shay have choosen to do. as for the pm if you don,t like them dont read them,was not trying to be ugly just trying to clarify my point to be sure you read it.
this is supposed to be an open forum not an insult the other or lets gang up on the different person area. lets keep an open mind and be professional. as hard as that my be for some.Last edit by mark_LD_RN on May 3, '02
May 3, '02Wow, I leave for two days and world war three breaks out!!! Some people like birth plans, some don't. Is it really that big of a deal?
May 3, '02Conception is a "joint effort", Mark. Delivering a baby is done by the woman, whether you like it or not and no matter how much support we give her!
Fergus--no one has a problem with birth plans. It is when they threaten the safety of the fetus as in Jolie's case.
May 3, '02hardknox i know the woman births the baby. that is not the point! you seem obsessed with the nurse in control issue. and birth is a joint effort even if the male is not the actual birthing person. Yes nurses do have problems with birth plans i see it all the time patient comes in with birth plan nurses roll their eyes and say here we go again,get the c/s paer work ready and such comments. maybe it is different where you work but not at the ones i have been at in louisiana ,mississippi,texas,and california.
as far as birth plans threathening the safety of the mother and or baby only a fool would stand by and let that happen.
I have helped many couples write birth plans, and have had some unreasonable requests ,such as no c section not matter what the reason, i have had one say not to give pain meds even if they asked. I informed them that theses were unreasonable and no one in right mind would go along with it. the no pain med request was made by the wife" her exact words were she did not want pain meds to be given even if she asked, she felt that she would give in and did not want them" i told her i could not do such a thing and she would need to address that issue her self.
i dont see what got shay and hard knox so upset and defensive, i just stated an opinion and it seems we agree on many points. but they seem to like to play the gender issue, and or read more into what i wrote than was intended.
May 3, '02most nurses do fear loss of control, And I have not experience what a lot of nurses here seem to claim.i have been part of many births with plans that did not want interventions.I have seen a much better outcome with theses couples,it is a shame so many nurses claim to be caring but are so judgemental and biased///so what you're saying is that a nurse who doesn't agree with everything the couple wants is 'uncaring,' huh? If your brain is functioning and you see horrible things happening in the name of sticking to the plan, well, nothing bad is really happening..you're just 'judgemental and biased.' Hmmm....
. nurses who fear bbirth plans or go into it with the thought of failure is the problem//certainly not the couples who think that the doctors and nurses are stupid and tell them so....oh, no, they're not the problem at all. Those pesky closed-minded nurses again...
if you treat the couple with respect and gain their trust instead of prejudging them and dooming them to failure//interesting that you give the nurses' beliefs such power over the physiology of labor and birth. If I'd known I could control the outcome of a birth simply by my thoughts, wow, my job would've been a whole lot easier.
as far as birth plans threathening the safety of the mother and or baby only a fool would stand by and let that happen. //and myself and the other nurses have plenty of examples of these fools. Funny how you've 'never' seen such a thing happen...
Yes nurses do have problems with birth plans i see it all the time patient comes in with birth plan nurses roll their eyes and say here we go again,get the c/s paer work ready and such comments//uh huh. And tell me, what do you say about a couple who comes in and the woman wants 'her epidural' before the next contraction hits...they are 10 min. apart and she is a fingertip primigravida? If you said anything remotely negative at all, tisk tisk tisk!! You're being negative, biased, and unprofessional!!
Shay , you are a very twisted hateful biased individual. and closed minded at that//uh huh. well, that's your opinion, to which you are entitled. Lots of folks on this board would disagree with you on that one.
I'm done with you, Mark, wonder nurse. I refuse to hold a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Have a fabulous day.