excelsior accepted in ?? states - page 5
hi all just wonderin if anyone knew which states do or don't accept excelsior college? I think calif doesn't and colorodo is about to not accept them after the first of the year but other than that I... Read More
Dec 19, '05Quote from hsiehIt is the format of how the school is set up. Going to nursing school in Idaho or even New York should not be different. All nurses that graduate from a an accepted program take the same NCLEX exam for licensure.are there any other schools in the country that states don't want to license? each state has it's own nursing school requirements so why is excelsior picked out? going to nursing school in idahoe is different then going in georgia. so why would those 2 states accept each others nursing grads?
And as you stated above, each state has its own requirements. Excelsior is a Distance Learning program, so it is not based in one state like other traditional programs.
Dec 20, '05Quote from traumahawk99The California board did conduct such a study but they did not publicly release it due to confidentiality agreements with hospitals who had requested the study.again, i'd have to ask... where is the evidence that excelsior nurses are harming people through incompetent practice? can anyone present any hard evidence? what about error rates of traditional nursing school students? before condemning the program, i'd say it would only make sense to look at hard evidence, and compare error rates. i've only seen opinions of people who "just know".
Quote from traumahawk99Uh ... the highest grade on our final exam was an 83, and the failure rate in my class right now is 30 percent (which includes two LVN's, btw). Feel free to read the general student forum where similar and, even higher traditional program failure rates are posted. In the past year, my school has raised the pass rate from 70 to 75 percent. While many people in my class, particularly those who failed, wish there was grade inflation, it just isn't happening.and what about grade inflation in traditional nursing schools?... if we want to talk about a rampant problem, i'd submit that there's one for you
Quote from traumahawk99I don't know about other states but, that program would not be accredited in California. If the school's NCLEX pass rate is less than 70 percent for two years, they lose state accreditation.what about traditional programs where the pass rate is 60%. would you want that nurse working on you?
I agree that traditional education needs to improve. But the key to improving traditional education IMHO is more clinicals, not less. EC's alternative of dropping clinicals all together doesn't improve the quality of nursing education, it weakens it.
Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 20, '05
Dec 20, '05Quote from traumahawk99And that's all your going to get.again, i'd have to ask... where is the evidence that excelsior nurses are harming people through incompetent practice? can anyone present any hard evidence? what about error rates of traditional nursing school students? before condemning the program, i'd say it would only make sense to look at hard evidence, and compare error rates. i've only seen opinions of people who "just know".
Believe me, my old posts sounded just like yours.
After reading some very disturbing posts from people about EC here, I desperately searched for anything concrete about EC grads and incompetent practice, mistakes, etc. and found nothing.
I combed through archives in multiple CA newspapers and news stations, nothing. Even CNA's own website, who apparantly was a driving force in the CA decision about EC, contains no info whatsoever about EC.
I searched through "allnurses" threads and only found one first hand account of someone who worked with an EC grad and had problems.
So then I posted my own thread here about a year ago, give or take, asking if anyone precepted, supervised, worked with, etc. any EC grads and had any problems with them.
I asked for any stories people could share, not just stories of big mistakes.
I asked for any tiny thing that someone might notice that was missing in the EC grad that might be needed as a new RN.
No reponses, so I posted it again.
Then I got reponses from people who did work with or supervise EC grads, but had nothing negative to say about them and all of the responders felt that they were just as competent as any other new RN.
EC is a topic posted so frequently here that I have a hard time believing that there are so many incompetent grads running around but nothing ever surfaces here. A big website full of nurses from everywhere.
None of the negative posts come from anyone that actually works with or supervises EC grads, in fact many of the posts come from students and not even RN's themselves.
That combined with the lack of any type of media coverage or internet info made me come to the conclusion that the whole thing was nothing more than a political move and what you're seeing is a BNE who caved in to heavy lobbying if not outright bullying from one loud nursing union and one big hospital corporation. The CA BNE is a puppet and they are pulling the strings.
Lizz, I'm not saying that I don't believe you or that CA never conducted any such study, I'm sure that they did gather data prior to their decision.
I just can't believe that for 30 years, IL was the only state that didn't license EC grads and that mistakes/incompetency was going unnoticed for years in the other 48 states that licensed them.
I also refuse to believe that this incompetency was so widespread yet the press never got a hold of it, especially on a state and local level, in any of the other states let alone CA.
I'm sure that the public in CA would be very interested in news coverage about a "diploma mill" that gave incompetent people access to RN licensure and are working in their local hospitals and clinics killing and hurting patients.
Confidentiality agreements are not "Fort Knox," if it was truely that big of a problem, it would have leaked somewhere long by now.
So why are there no stories out there to be told? Because there either are no stories, or they are so far and few and have been so grossly exaggerated that there is not enough substance left in them to be told.
That was my conclusion after a long search for anything related to "EC grad problems."
Dec 20, '05Wow, i thought this thread was all about what states accept EC, not what people don't like EC.
Dec 20, '05Quote from Marie_LPN:yeahthat:Wow, i thought this thread was all about what states accept EC, not what people don't like EC.
Dec 20, '05so the california board of nursing conducted a study that can't be made public.... hmmmm... i can't think of any discipline where the results of secret studies are accepted as factual. you can design any "investigation" to prove a point you're trying to prove. that doesn't mean it would stand up to critical examination, and it proves absolutely *nothing*. very convenient that nothing can be made public. i can't think of another discipline where this would receive any credibility, yet some would accept it as gospel. where are those critical thinking skills?
i think it would have been as pedinurse said... this terrible epidemic of vending machine nursing licenses exposed. i've reached the same conclusion. there is no substance to this, or we'd have seen some independent verification. if this had been a true story, it would have been great for 60 minutes.
Dec 20, '05Quote from marie_lpnyes. this is what the thread is supposed to be about. please be kind to others, and keep the focus to the original post, or feel free to start a new thread.wow, i thought this thread was all about what states accept ec, not what people don't like ec.
Jan 2, '06Does anyone know if Arkansas state board of nursing accepts Excelsior or not. I sure hope so. I have started the program through Rue ed. Please tell me that I didn't just waste my time and money.
Jan 2, '06Quote from michelle1874Yes, Arkansas accepts EC grads without restrictions of any kind. It is written and easy to find on their board of nursing website.Does anyone know if Arkansas state board of nursing accepts Excelsior or not. I sure hope so. I have started the program through Rue ed. Please tell me that I didn't just waste my time and money.
Jan 2, '06Quote from RN34TXIf it is public enough for the public to know there was a study conducted on how dangerous Excelsior graduates are, I'd say it would be public enough to find out more about it than by anectdotal accounts from burned ex-EC students.And that's all your going to get.
Bottom line: California is the only state that won't accept EC grads at all. Even the California BON is not going to diss the program. In spite of the horror stories of EC educated nurses with humps on their backs lurking from the shadows causing death and destruction with their incompetence, Excelsior is not allowed because the school's clinical component does not meet the requirements to be licensed in CA.
Jan 9, '06The REAL reason some states don't accept Excelsior College graduates is for one and only one reason: so Jr. and Community colleges will have a monopoly on RN education--there IS no other low cost alternative and because every Jr. colleges prerequisite requirements are slightly different--every susequent school will make any who fails repeat everything--either people will PAY and do that or just give up.
What gripes them about Excelsior college is that it is OBJECTIVE. They can't flunk out people for SUBJECTIVE reasons.
Now I would never say that NO ONE should be flunked out of clinicals for SUBJECTIVE reasons because patient safety is paramount. ANYONE will tell you who has completed clinicals in traditional that some people get flunked out of clinicals for unfathomable capricious reasons while morons pass! When that happens to an unfortunate person they have to either RETAKE prerequisites and start all over or really pay alot at a BSN program. Some people don't have the money. Not to mention that if their new school ever hears that they were at another nursing school and flunked out that they will be branded!
What it really boils down to is CONTROL to enter the profession and by that CONTROL locked in monopoly and tuition to Jr. colleges. See most Jr. colleges don't have the money for the clinical faculty to graduate a decent percentage of nursing students--they weed them out--regardless of their suitability as nurses or their safety in a clinical setting--but only because they don't have the money for enough clinical faculty to evaluate them all!
Excelsior College breaks their monopoly and people are able to get around them! That's where the real rub is. They could care less if a person could pass the NCLEX or whther the person could function as a nurse--they just want control of nursing education tuition money. What did Deep Throat say? Follow the money!
Anyone that believes that the Micky Mouse clinicals in traditional nursing programs come anywhere close to predicting how well an individual could funtion in a REAL setting is crazy! That's not to say that clinical education isn't of any use--it is--but if it REALLY is then why shouldn't nursing education programs be more on the lines of the old hopsital hands on nursing programs? One word--MONEY! Such hands on training costs too much--if it didn't you wouldn't see the dying of those hospital based programs.
So spare me all the self righteous concerns about patient safety--if State Boards of Nursing were REALLY concerned with patient safety THEY would test individual's clinical skills just like states already give people DRIVING licenses after they pass a test! If someone graduates from Excelsior College and passes the NCLEX they have the mental ability to function as a nurse and they for sure have a rudimentary ability to function in the REAL world as evidenced by PASSING the CPNE which many do not pass!
They have just as good a chance of functioning as a nurse as anyone else who went through a traditional program and passed subjective clinical evaluations which other than a mound of paperwork had very little HANDS ON doing of ANYTHING! Not to mention that in those clinicals a ZILLION tasks are done wrong and some people pass and some don't--while that might screen out some bad apples it also screens out good apples. Excelsior college offers the opportunity to break the Nursing Tuition Monopoly and relieve the nursing shortage which ENDANGERS patient health.
Grow up people and get a clue--we're living in the 21st century--traditional schools will not last indefinitely. If you want to test hands on skills for the sake of patient saftey then by all means test them--just don't tell me that the Mickey Mouse hands on clinical tests of traditional programs are any better an indicator of potential functioning as a nurse than Excelsior College's CPNE and the rigor of it's purely OBJECTIVE self study which requires DISCIPLINE beyond that of traditional programs!
Bottom line: Excluding Excelsior College graduates and potentially any other distance learning program in the future IS NOT about patient safety but all about MONEY!
Jan 9, '06I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I will comment on some of it.
If you think that EC doesn't fail people for "SUBJECTIVE" reasons just like in traditional programs, I disagree and have the experience to back that up.
I'll mention only one example just to make my point, yet keep as brief as possible, even though I have many more to list during my own 3 day CPNE experience:
The wound care station. You think to yourself, simple and easy, right?
My examiner had to have a conference with the CA to debate whether my dressing was a pass or fail. I never broke sterile field, both of them acknowledged that. Yet my examiner "didn't like" the way I placed the sterile dressing on the wound. It wasn't "the way we do it" at another CPNE test site as she was substituting from another CPNE site.
I passed, but the examiner was angry about it because it wasn't done how she would teach a student to do it. None of her personal criteria, of course, was anywhere to be seen in the CPNE book, yet she expected me to do it her way and could not accept that plenty of other instructors across the U.S. do not teach it the same way that she does and that there is more than one way to do many nursing activities and still be "correct."
As far as the theory on schools wanting to monopolize nursing students and graduates, I don't think that it had so much to do with the schools themselves as it did with strongarm tactics from one loud, vocal nursing union (that ironically represents EC grads) and one big powerful hospital corporation (that ironically to this day, employs EC grads.)
If it truely were about patient safety and incompetence, rather than political motives, then these issues would have been brought to the CA BNE long before 2003 since CA had no problem licensing grads since 1973.
You can't tell me that the "fly by night" CMA's and EMT's that became RN's via EC, that ended up being bad RN's, were nowhere to be found, completely undetectable all through the 70's, 80's, and 90's, until a CA nursing union and Kaiser "discovered" their many errors and/or patient killings and put a stop to them.
What disturbs me most about this entire controversy, is that people who are totally in favor of CA's decision, put all their faith into the CA BNE, never once question the possibility that they might actually be wrong in their "CA law states that every RN grad must have X number of clinical hours...." rhetoric, as if the laws are set in stone, never to be changed with the times.
Laws are changed all of the time and the anti-EC sentiment is based on current CA law. People in favor of EC being banned by the state sit behind the law without any question of it's validity, yet at the same time would question that same law if it didn't suit them.
No one wants to even fathom the possibility that maybe, just maybe, it's CA law that needs to be changed, and not so much EC's curriculum, and don't even take into account that plenty of CA RN's are EC grads and are doing fine. They all want to focus on the sensationalized "bad RN's" or want to focus on how unfair it is for an EC grad to not put in as many clinical hours as a traditional grad.
If I truely needed all of those clinical hours, I would have long been fired and/or had my RN license pulled by now, don't you think?
I agree that CA and EC need to come to terms, and that EC has failed in making a decent effort toward that, but it's time that people start acknowledging the CA BNE's reasons for their decisions, and stop acting as if they are some superpower that couldn't possibly be wrong.
Jan 9, '06Quote from Jerry-JetWe've been over this before. The state of California, for example, doesn't make any more or less money with or without EC in the picture. The reason is: they can't take any more students as it is and, even if the state could take more students, they would lose ... not make ... more money.Excelsior College breaks their monopoly and people are able to get around them! That's where the real rub is. They could care less if a person could pass the NCLEX or whther the person could function as a nurse--they just want control of nursing education tuition money. What did Deep Throat say? Follow the money!
Remember: state education is subsidized .... which means it costs the state at least $10,000 to educate each nursing student over and above whatever that student pays in tuition. Like any state school, they lose money for every student they take because the government is subsidizing the costs of education. This is why tuition is so much cheaper at state rather than private schools.
If California state schools end up educating the 5,000 or so EC students who were enrolled here, that means the state will actually lose $50 million. So the argument that the state somehow gains with tuition money is ridiculous ... since state school tuition doesn't begin to cover the real costs of educating nursing students.
Last edit by Sheri257 on Jan 9, '06