Any ADN-BSN programs without ridiculous papers?

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BostonFNP, APRN

2 Articles; 5,581 Posts

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

I think the studies that show better clinical outcomes with BSN's vs ADN's is hog wash. Of course, the people that are conducting the study are going to say that BSN's are better than ADN's. There's no ADN's who are conducting studies, so the idea of a ADN being inferior is completely biased.

Really...there's no bachelor prepared nurses that suck at the bedside? It's just the ADNs who bring it down for the rest of us?

The issue is not better clinical outcomes.

Ethics was great, research was great, the electives were great...... It's not going to do anything at the bedside.

I feel compelled to respond to a couple of things here:

1. The "people conducting the study" can not simply "say" that BSNs are better than ADNs. That is not how research work nor is it what the paper actually says. The study found that better clinical outcomes were associated with hospitals with higher percentages of nurses with advanced degrees. People can be biased but the data and statistics is not biased; to be published in a peer-reviewed publication (in this case a major medical journal) all bias must be removed. If you can find so e evidence of bias through your own interpretation of the data I would be interested in hearing/discussing it.

2. We are not talking about individuals. The are always outliers: great ADNs and horrid BSNs. We are taking, as least in a research sense, about aggregates.

3. I strongly disagree about clinical outcomes not being paramount. Even from a financial perspective, reimbursements are predicated on clinical outcomes.

4. You mention some aspects which were "great". These did not help at the bedside? If I had to blindly choose a nurse based on whether they had taken ethics and research, I would pick the one that had. You wouldn't?

PMFB-RN, RN

5,351 Posts

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
If I had to blindly choose a nurse based on whether they had taken ethics and research, I would pick the one that had. You wouldn't?

*** I would pick the one with certification. If my family member where in the ICU and without knowing anything more about the nurse than the letters on his badge I would choose the RN, BSN, CCRN over the RN, BSN.

Certification tells me that the nurse has at least some experiences and knows about that area of nursing. Outliers excepted.

PMFB-RN, RN

5,351 Posts

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I am ashamed of some of the things I read that nurses have documented.

*** I am often amused at what I read in physicians notes. Physicians are often held up as the model of the highly educated person and yet many of them can't spell any better than I can and seem to have never taken an english class.

I don't see it as much now with EMR but back in the day of the hand written progress note it could be bad. As a person who can't spell I am lucky that all of our hospital computers have Word on them. I write my notes in Word then cut and paste them into our EMR. Been a lifesaver. I wish I could do that when posting to AN but I am usually writing from my phone while waiting for a hair cut, or to pick my kids up from school or something similar.

Susie2310

2,121 Posts

I feel compelled to respond to a couple of things here:

1. The "people conducting the study" can not simply "say" that BSNs are better than ADNs. That is not how research work nor is it what the paper actually says. The study found that better clinical outcomes were associated with hospitals with higher percentages of nurses with advanced degrees. People can be biased but the data and statistics is not biased; to be published in a peer-reviewed publication (in this case a major medical journal) all bias must be removed. If you can find so e evidence of bias through your own interpretation of the data I would be interested in hearing/discussing it.

2. We are not talking about individuals. The are always outliers: great ADNs and horrid BSNs. We are taking, as least in a research sense, about aggregates.

3. I strongly disagree about clinical outcomes not being paramount. Even from a financial perspective, reimbursements are predicated on clinical outcomes.

4. You mention some aspects which were "great". These did not help at the bedside? If I had to blindly choose a nurse based on whether they had taken ethics and research, I would pick the one that had. You wouldn't?

In regard to the prominent study I believe you are referring to, a nurse on this forum posted some time ago that he/she was part of a panel for his/her state that reviewed the study and rejected the conclusions of that particular study for specific reasons he/she listed, and on that basis the panel determined not to proceed with implementing BSN for entry in to practice in his/her state.

I disagree with you that people can be biased but the data and statistics is not biased. Data and statistics can certainly be biased. To give just a few examples, from sampling methodology and size of sample, type of study: quantitative or qualitative, statistical techniques used, formulation of hypotheses, steps used to determine if a relationship exists and strength of a relationship i.e. correlation, and the fact that correlation is not causation, there are many opportunities for bias in the data and statistics in a study, even if the mathematical computations are calculated correctly. Peer review is the evaluation of works (in this case, nursing research) by people at a similar level to the person/s producing the work for the purpose of spotting mistakes: It is method of self-regulation, and does not guarantee correctness or certainty in the work. Review by one's peers opens the possibility for many biases.

chevyv, BSN, RN

1,679 Posts

Specializes in Acute Mental Health.

I think many of the required ADN to BSN courses are about the almighty dollar. I talked about having to take nursing assessment again for the BSN completion degree and I felt it was overkill. I still feel the same way. Basically, it is the same course complete with the cotton ball to the cheek and close your eyes and sniff the cofee beans.... This is fine except I have never seen a staff RN do any of this. NP's I've seen during physical exams perform all of what I learned in the ADN and BSN classes.

My point was just that perhaps they should redo the whole program and gear it towards the RN who is working in the field compared with the traditional student who is not yet a nurse. They seem to mirror each other rather than build on what many of us do daily.

Tait, MSN, RN

2,140 Posts

Specializes in Acute Care Cardiac, Education, Prof Practice.

I find it all amusing to argue that increased education is a waste of time.

allnurses Guide

BostonFNP, APRN

2 Articles; 5,581 Posts

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

*** I would pick the one with certification. If my family member where in the ICU and without knowing anything more about the nurse than the letters on his badge I would choose the RN, BSN, CCRN over the RN, BSN.

Certification tells me that the nurse has at least some experiences and knows about that area of nursing. Outliers excepted.

What if both are certified? (Remove the confounder.)

allnurses Guide

BostonFNP, APRN

2 Articles; 5,581 Posts

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.

In regard to the prominent study I believe you are referring to, a nurse on this forum posted some time ago that he/she was part of a panel for his/her state that reviewed the study and rejected the conclusions of that particular study for specific reasons he/she listed, and on that basis the panel determined not to proceed with implementing BSN for entry in to practice in his/her state.

I disagree with you that people can be biased but the data and statistics is not biased. Data and statistics can certainly be biased. To give just a few examples, from sampling methodology and size of sample, type of study: quantitative or qualitative, statistical techniques used, formulation of hypotheses, steps used to determine if a relationship exists and strength of a relationship i.e. correlation, and the fact that correlation is not causation, there are many opportunities for bias in the data and statistics in a study, even if the mathematical computations are calculated correctly. Peer review is the evaluation of works (in this case, nursing research) by people at a similar level to the person/s producing the work for the purpose of spotting mistakes: It is method of self-regulation, and does not guarantee correctness or certainty in the work. Review by one's peers opens the possibility for many biases.

I have read the paper and examined the data several times. I can appreciate several flaws in the study but I do not see any obvious author bias. Do you see a specific example?

Susie2310

2,121 Posts

BostonFNP, I apologize if I was unclear in my post. My post was intended to point out that data and statistics can certainly be biased in research studies, although competent and ethical researchers will strive to minimize biases by following good/accepted statistical practice and research procedures, and will declare study limitations, conflicts of interest, etc. I referred to another nurse's post in regard to a particular study because of the discussion this nurse initiated in regard to the study's findings that was persuasive to me, but I have not analyzed the study myself.

PMFB-RN, RN

5,351 Posts

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
I find it all amusing to argue that increased education is a waste of time.

*** Who in this discussion has argued that? Nobody I have seen.

TiffyRN, BSN, PhD

2,315 Posts

Specializes in Nurse Scientist-Research.
What if both are certified? (Remove the confounder.)

Oh wait, I know this one!!

Nurse Specialty Certification, Inpatient Mortality, and Failure to Rescue - Kendall-Gallagher - 2011 - Journal of Nursing Scholarship - Wiley Online Library

But I'm sure the methods were flawed, the researchers biased, and besides that, all the researchers had advanced degrees.

And by the way, I never knew how to look up such research studies quickly and accurately before taking an English class specifically on how to write research papers (not required by ADN, but was required for RN to BSN) and my Nursing Research course.

Has there been fluff in my RN to BSN courses, certainly, or maybe I just haven't realized their value yet. In general though, I have improved my practice with every course I have taken.

The original question was if there were any RN to BSN programs that didn't require ridiculous papers. I'm not sure I have that answer for the OP. What I would like to emphasize is not to let that detail keep you from a degree that unarguably will make you more desirable and employable.

Obviously there is substantial argument and disagreement over whether this will make you a better nurse. I offer that if the OP controls that outcome in how they apply the education offered.

ixchel

4,547 Posts

Specializes in critical care.

Has there been fluff in my RN to BSN courses, certainly, or maybe I just haven't realized their value yet.

Best, most level-headed thought in this thread yet. :)

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