Union asks nurses at the University of Massachusetts to OK strike - page 5

union asks nurses at the university of massachusetts to ok strike... Read More

  1. by   DebbieSue
    Ezra,
    You don't pay attention very well to what others reply to you. This is not about RN/NP crap, as you put it. I have been an advanced practice RN, CV CNS, for 20 years. It is, however, all about respect. In this case, it is about your blatant disrespect for bedside nurses, which you gave vent to under the guise of posting about unions/striking. NO ONE who respects bedside nursing would have said the things you said in your earlier posts.

    Advanced practice nursing is not harder, it is DIFFERENT. But how can you possibly know that since you have never been a bedside nurse? Let me use an example from the daily practice of the staff nurses with whom I work most closely: these nurses do not have advanced degrees, but they practice at a very high level. They do not trot around all day 'following Doctor's orders' between coffee and smoke breaks. This is just a small example of what they do. I ask you, Ezra, can you do this? Does your graduate degree make your practice somehow more 'advanced' than this??

    Just today, John, RN, scrubbed in on the emergent bedside mediastinal reexploration of a patient on his unit, while another nurse, with her own pt assignment cares for his pt assignment for the duration of the operation. He kept everyone focused, quickly got everyone else garbed, garbed himself, maintained a sterile field, anticipated what the surgeons would need long before they asked for it, directed the circulator concerning getting the Level I infuser, etc. etc. It the pt would have needed to go on ECMO, he would have been able to assist with cannulation. There is nothing besides needing to go on full-blown bypass that he could not have helped accomplish at that bedside.

    Sue, RN, at the other end of the unit, is caring for her end-stage cardiac failure pt on the ventilator, on an LVAD, on inhaled NO, on various vasoactive infusions, such as milrinone, vasopressin, epinephrine, all the while monitoring SvO2 continuously and titrating various aspects of this pts care regimen. She is able to determine if and when the iNO needs increased, or if it could be decreased, if and when the decreased SvO2 is a trend vs. a transient response to suctioning or other factors, and the best way to reverse the trend. She is able to ascertain when the data she is receiving from the monitoring equipment is valid and when it is artifact. She is expert in assessing and 'playing with' preload, contractility and afterload to maintain this pts cardiac output. She does this at the same time she advocates, supports, and teachs the frantic family. She coordinates all the various input from the 6 consultant services on the case. She prevents skin breakdown, assesses the pts nutritional status, recognizes early signs of infection, etc. I could, but will not, go on. When the attending surgeon want to know what is really going on with the patient, he talks to this BEDSIDE NURSE. Like I said, what you as an NP do is not more difficult than this, it is different. Just as what I do as a CNS is different, not harder. The difference between you and me, is that I know what bedside nursing is all about, and I respect what these expert nurses know and do.

    It is the same thing no matter where a bedside nurse practices. Despite what it may look like to an onlooker, there is a lot more going on in the nurse's practice than meets the eye. You don't get it unless you've been there and done that.

    What a simplistic statement, saying that your NP role just HAS to be more difficult, didn't you have to get a MSN to do it.

    Bedside nurses join nursing unions and negotiate contracts and sometimes strike for a reason. Since you don't know much about bedside nursing at all, your opinion about it is worthless, as you have made so abundantly clear.

    Debbie, who chose to be a bedside nurse BEFORE I decided to be an advanced practice nurse, unlike EZRA, who thinks that she is doing something 'bigger' that what bedside nurses do.

    Like I said, nonnurse BS-to-MSN programs are just plain WRONG.
    Last edit by DebbieSue on Oct 28, '06
  2. by   Ezra73
    Quote from DebbieSue
    Advanced practice nursing is not harder, it is DIFFERENT. But how can you possibly know that since you have never been a bedside nurse? Let me use an example from the daily practice of the staff nurses with whom I work most closely: these nurses do not have advanced degrees, but they practice at a very high level. They do not trot around all day 'following Doctor's orders' between coffee and smoke breaks. This is just a small example of what they do. I ask you, Ezra, can you do this?

    Like I said, nonnurse BS-to-MSN programs are just plain WRONG.
    first off, let's get one thing straight...i did not start this NP harder than RN argument. however, if you must continue then i will reply.

    1. advanced practice nursing can be harder or easier depending on the role. an NP in employee health doing physicals all day pales in comparison to the difficulty and expertise required to be an RN in a CCU/ICU. however, a surgical/acute care NP role can be a lot more difficult and brutal (this is what i do).

    2. can i do this? yes. i first assist in surgery. i am first call on truama. i evaluate imaging studies and call in the surgeon if i think he needs to come in. I PERFORM BEDSIDE SURGICAL PROCEDURES AND NOT ASSIST so i think that qualifies me. i care for over 20+ patients with an attending out of the hospital.

    3. BS to MSN programs are not "wrong." i respect your opinion, but disagree. i know a fair amount of RNs that are at or below average and lack a bedside demeanor that nursing prides itself on. i also know a fair amount of NPs (even docs) that really show they care. it doesn't take years of experience or a nursing education to be a good person.

    oh, and an NP practices completely different than an RN. to say one must be an RN before being an NP is like saying one must be an RN before being a PA or even an MD. they're different roles!!! if you want to be an NP and incorporate all the history of nursing ideas, theory, etc. into your practice then that is fine. but, it's not gonna happen 99% of the time in REALITY nowadays. wake up. unless you're an NP then you will have no idea of this. everything from billing, DEA, credentialing, insurance issues, and on and on. its a totally different role. NOT "BETTER," but very different.

    with my floor nursing experience (even limited) and practicing at an MD level for many years, yes, i could make the transition to an RN in the ICU, ER, or regular floor. the same cannot be said for asking an RN to suddenly make diagnostic decisions and practice medicine at the level of an NP, PA, or MD. you're being silly if you think that is the case.
    Last edit by Ezra73 on Oct 28, '06
  3. by   nuangel1
    and ezra your just being insulting i don't care whether you are a rn np msn or any other initial .typing in caps is rude its called shouting .and you show your ignorance by refusing to see others pov. .yes you have a right to your opinion but clearly don't know what you are talking about .because you are not a rn in a union working at the bedside .i have a right to my opinion too .i have been a rn over 20yrs .i don't want to be an np .but i have a right to be treated fairly in my work.yes i am a rn bsn acls pal tncc and i am in a union .
  4. by   Ezra73
    Quote from nuangel1
    and ezra your just being insulting i don't care whether you are a rn np msn or any other initial .typing in caps is rude its called shouting .and you show your ignorance by refusing to see others pov. .yes you have a right to your opinion but clearly don't know what you are talking about .because you are not a rn in a union working at the bedside .i have a right to my opinion too .i have been a rn over 20yrs .i don't want to be an np .but i have a right to be treated fairly in my work.yes i am a rn bsn acls pal tncc and i am in a union .
    LOL

    insulting? my, don't we have some sensitive folks here. what exactly have i said that is insulting? the logical explanations of questions asked? dare i even say, the truth? i find that people with an over emotional basis of understanding tend to get offended/insulted easily when in reality, no insults have been imposed.

    refusing to see other people's point of view? please. few have seen my point of view. it's pointless to argue with "experienced" RNs here or on the floors because you all seem to be cast of the same mold. your views are skewed in a manner that always seems to lead to the same place...poor poor nurses being beat up by administration. non-union people have heard this time and time again and it pretty much sounds like a broken record at this point.

    call me rude. call me arrogant. call me whatever you like. i really don't care. i know that i am respected for my work by my patients and my colleagues...that's really all that matters to me.

    now, as much as i am against striking, i have never said that i don't believe in the cause itself, if it's a legit argument. safe staffing, mandatory overtime, etc.. personally, mandatory overtime is something that i accept as a salaried professional, but i can see how it can affect other people not in this position. this does not mean that i condone striking, but at least i can understand and stomach it to a certain extent if RNs are being dragged through the mud for the pure enjoyment of management. i just see a pattern developing where RNs want what we all want, but use the strong arm of the union to get it. this frustrates me and i am opposed to the use of unions in this manner. striking should always be a last resort, but it appears to be becoming a first line of attack more and more...even if it's just a threat and not an outright walk out.
  5. by   feltmeyer
    My experience with union nursing is from working in the northern states> I believe a good union who has great bargaining capabilities can bring a good outcome for all the nurses, the patient and yes even the hospital itself. If the nurses are happy they provide a relaxing positive atmosphere. Yet it is basic instinct that when undue stress is put on the one providing a service it increases room for error. So the real question is do I want a stressed out tensed sleep deprieved nurse taking care of me or is it worth the few extra benefits that nurses ask for to reduce the room for error when I am the client lying in bed. any thoughts in agreeance or disagreeance would be appreciated.
  6. by   Ezra73
    Quote from feltmeyer
    My experience with union nursing is from working in the northern states> I believe a good union who has great bargaining capabilities can bring a good outcome for all the nurses, the patient and yes even the hospital itself. If the nurses are happy they provide a relaxing positive atmosphere. Yet it is basic instinct that when undue stress is put on the one providing a service it increases room for error. So the real question is do I want a stressed out tensed sleep deprieved nurse taking care of me or is it worth the few extra benefits that nurses ask for to reduce the room for error when I am the client lying in bed. any thoughts in agreeance or disagreeance would be appreciated.
    the work environment should indeed be safe for RNs (and everyone). this will provide better care for the patients. what will not provide better care is when those same RNs walk out the door during a strike. it is a catch-22 i guess for those that feel striking is warranted.

    the general attitude i am feeling from RNs is that things simply won't change unless management is cornered. that might be true, but then again, it might not always be the case.
  7. by   JBudd
    Quote from Ezra73
    the work environment should indeed be safe for RNs (and everyone). this will provide better care for the patients. what will not provide better care is when those same RNs walk out the door during a strike. it is a catch-22 i guess for those that feel striking is warranted.

    the general attitude i am feeling from RNs is that things simply won't change unless management is cornered. that might be true, but then again, it might not always be the case.
    As I said before, there is a 10 day notice, the patients were moved out and end result was both better work environment and being able to provide better care. Many months (years) of talk talk talk, negotiate, push, complain, recommend, and being ignored, shunted aside, told we were just complainers, until we walked out. The CEO resigned a day before the notice, the DON shortly after the strike was over, new and somewhat better management came in. I've out lasted 6 or 7 CEOs now, which side of the table do you think truly has the good of our community at heart?
    And yes, I was insulted by your blanket statement assuming I would only strike out of greed (which is the primary feeling I got from your original post). If the issue was only money, I'd've simply resigned and gone elsewhere. This is my home, and now my community hospital is better off.


    I'm working on my masters, and no, the work I will be doing when I graduate if I choose to leave the bedside will be no more difficult, and will definitely be less stressful than what I do now; it will simply be a different facet of nursing.
  8. by   Ezra73
    Quote from JBudd
    I'm working on my masters, and no, the work I will be doing when I graduate if I choose to leave the bedside will be no more difficult, and will definitely be less stressful than what I do now; it will simply be a different facet of nursing.
    ...and you know this because you already have your masters and are currently working in this imaginary position that you are currently not working?

    will you be an NP?

    no offense people, but some of your statements are just absurd. if you have never worked as an NP (or any job that you have never worked), then don't say it will be less stressful! you don't know!

    i can't say working as a circus clown will be less stressful as my current role as a surgical NP, because i never went to clown college or worked as a clown. unbelievable.
  9. by   MuddaMia
    Quote from Ezra73
    ...and you know this because you already have your masters and are currently working in this imaginary position that you are currently not working?

    will you be an NP?

    no offense people, but some of your statements are just absurd. if you have never worked as an NP (or any job that you have never worked), then don't say it will be less stressful! you don't know!

    i can't say working as a circus clown will be less stressful as my current role as a surgical NP, because i never went to clown college or worked as a clown. unbelievable.

    Ezra..you are one of the rudest, most confrontational posters I have seen on allnurses. Why don't you just find solace in your obvious big-shot status and stop coming here to reiterate how important you are...how your job transcends that of a mere staff nurse..and how you laugh at the ignorance of all the other posters. You are obnoxious.
  10. by   Ezra73
    Quote from MuddaMia
    Ezra..you are one of the rudest, most confrontational posters I have seen on allnurses. Why don't you just find solace in your obvious big-shot status and stop coming here to reiterate how important you are...how your job transcends that of a mere staff nurse..and how you laugh at the ignorance of all the other posters. You are obnoxious.
    did that post of yours make you feel good? i bet it did!

    i have not been rude. i have been honest. the problem is that a lot of you live in this fantasy world and if people are not "politically correct" then a lot of you get all upset. i am simply saying things that a lot of people in the healthcare field feel. if you don't like it, oh well. i am not afraid to speak my mind here on the forum, or face to face in the hospital. i am a confident person that speaks his mind. if i say things that you don't like then you can either be upset or reply in a manner that makes you appear intelligent rather than defensive and offended.

    in your above quoted post, you make big assumptions. these assumptions, if you really read my posts, are incorrect. i am not here to make myself feel important. i really don't care about titles. i am friends with RNs, MDs, PAs, and other NPs. we all debate from time to time in a manner far more intense than in this thread.

    calling me obnoxious is a cop out. why not try putting some more thought into your post and counter attack with a solid argument that might add more substance to this debate. if you can't get a hold of your emotional outbursts and name calling, then try clicking some place else. i enjoy a good argument whether i win or lose. it's about making statements and backing them up with a good logical response. i have only seen this from a few good posts thus far.
  11. by   pickledpepperRN
    All day and all night nurses care for the sickest people. Usually there is no physician, NP, or PA present.
    WE assess, plan the care, evaluate, change the plan of care, while attending to ADLs, unstable vital signs, the spiritual and emotional needs of the patient and family.
    All night every night and all day every day, holidays and all we are caring for our patients.
    We often must pursuade physicians who are groggy because we woke them up to come to the hospital. Sometimes we must coax them into truly hearing what we must tell them and they must understand so they can give us orders to keep our patients alive.
    WE simultaneously time the IABP, measure I&O running the CRRT, titrate multiple drips, assess head to toe including pain assessment, troubleshoot equipment to obtain accutate hemodynamic measurements, draw labs and treat the results of electrolytes, H&H, glucose, APTT, ABGs and other data. We teach and empathise with the patient, provide the assistance to loved ones so they can help their parent, child or spouse, Bathe, feed, and ensure DVT precautions are followed.
    We remind physicians to wash their hands and assist with bedside surgery at 3:00 am when fatigued surgeons accidentally scratch their nose with a sterile glove. We deal with their anger when we remind them because they are here to save our patient.
    Sometimes years later we get to remember that night and hear that that very same patient is enjoying life, even riding a bike with grandchildren.

    Is it stressful to be the only professional with a critically ill patient when anything can happen, and often does? Sure.
    It is rewarding too.

    No I have not experienced the stress of a primary care provider.
    Only a nurse with the years of experience nedded to become expert can understand the awesome responsibility of those of us who work on Christmas, Thanksgiving, and weekend nights with skeleton staff as we care for the sickest people in town.
  12. by   Ezra73
    Quote from spacenurse
    All day and all night nurses care for the sickest people. Usually there is no physician, NP, or PA present.
    WE assess, plan the care, evaluate, change the plan of care, while attending to ADLs, unstable vital signs, the spiritual and emotional needs of the patient and family.
    All night every night and all day every day, holidays and all we are caring for our patients.
    We often must pursuade physicians who are groggy because we woke them up to come to the hospital. Sometimes we must coax them into truly hearing what we must tell them and they must understand so they can give us orders to keep our patients alive.
    WE simultaneously time the IABP, measure I&O running the CRRT, titrate multiple drips, assess head to toe including pain assessment, troubleshoot equipment to obtain accutate hemodynamic measurements, draw labs and treat the results of electrolytes, H&H, glucose, APTT, ABGs and other data. We teach and empathise with the patient, provide the assistance to loved ones so they can help their parent, child or spouse, Bathe, feed, and ensure DVT precautions are followed.
    We remind physicians to wash their hands and assist with bedside surgery at 3:00 am when fatigued surgeons accidentally scratch their nose with a sterile glove. We deal with their anger when we remind them because they are here to save our patient.
    Sometimes years later we get to remember that night and hear that that very same patient is enjoying life, even riding a bike with grandchildren.

    Is it stressful to be the only professional with a critically ill patient when anything can happen, and often does? Sure.
    It is rewarding too.

    No I have not experienced the stress of a primary care provider.
    Only a nurse with the years of experience nedded to become expert can understand the awesome responsibility of those of us who work on Christmas, Thanksgiving, and weekend nights with skeleton staff as we care for the sickest people in town.
    AWESOME post!!! now that's what i am talking about. articulate and to the point without anger or emotional defensiveness. bravo.

    you see, i am not out to put myself in a higher position than others. i am just sick and tired of the large number of RNs that seem to act on emotion rather than logic. its ok to be "emotional," but not when you're in a position where one must bargain for this and that...then you just sound whiney and irritating.

    what spacenurse is saying is the #1 reason why RNs make the hospital work. i am in the ICU 10-20% of the day...AM rounds, afternoon checks, and if needed. the RN needs to be there all day making sure one's MAP stays between a certain range. this delicate balance of one's pressure could mean the difference between a good outcome and a bad one.

    i commend nurses like spacenurse that not only do their job well, but articulate it in a manner that commands respect.

    back to my point...if 100 RNs like spacenurse are on the street then who will be filling in his/her shoes to keep people like me from scratching my nose with surgical gloves on doing a bedside procedure? maybe a much less qualified RN...and that my friends puts people's lives in danger.
  13. by   mekrn
    Ezra do you think nurses strike for entertainment? It was one of the hardest things we had to do. We practically begged the hospital to move the patients out, we extended the 10 day notice, but the census was as high as ever the day we walked out. Sometimes there is no alternative. Nursing is my profession. While I do love it, I do not do it out of the kindness of my heart. If I was a billionaire I would not be working as a nurse. I do this to support my family. If my skills are so valuable that peoples lives would be in danger if I did not provide them, then I should be able to provide them in a safe environment, and I should be fairly compensated for them.

    I hope that the person who created the video is not offended that I posted it here, but I believe it shows the strength of nurses working together, and I watch it everyday for inspiration. Make sure your volume is turned up if you watch it.

    www.picunurses.net/video.htm

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