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Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care



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No. 40
from wooh
Old Oct 19, 2009, 05:23 AM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
Any family that tries to overtreat me when it's time for me to go, and ANYONE that throws a freaking beach ball at me WILL BE HAUNTED after I'm finally gone. (And I say this as someone that tried the volleyball thing when I did LTC. It did NOT go over well.)
I'm starting the list now people. I'll be back haunting anyone that does stupid stuff like that. So don't fear my family that threatens to sue! FEAR MY GHOST!
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No. 41
from sadjie72
Old Oct 19, 2009, 10:09 AM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
I think the general public needs a lot of education about the impact of aging. Research needs to be done in the geriatric setting in order to educate the community, medical staff and policy makers about futility of care that these elderly patients receives. There is a huge gap in knowledge about caring the elderly population towards the end-of-life. With the nursing shortage projected to occur in the next 20 years (because of the baby boomers), I can forsee more problems bound to happen. I love the elderly population and I will continue to advocate for them so that they will get appropriate care towards the end-of-life. These are people that worked all their life to provide better future for their children, hence their voices are not heard. This is why it is crucial to have advance directives in place right from the get go so that when faced with dilemma it can be delt with appropriately.
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No. 42
from hope3456
Old Oct 19, 2009, 10:24 AM
Updated Oct 19, 2009 at 10:40 AM by hope3456

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
Forgive me I haven't read thru all the posts on this discussion but from what I see on the news with the 'health care reform' Obama IS looking into this issue (how much medical care for very elderly vs. pallative care). The republicans are criticizing him and Sara Palin is accusing him of encouraging 'death panels.'

Even as a republican, I think the GOP is contradicting themselves on this issue. LTC's have been providing substandard treatment to our elderly for many years now......do you think GWB did anything about it? No, he cut their medicare funding making the situation worse.

I work M/S and see elderly people getting tubes shoved into every orifice, poked and prodded with IV's, ect all to extend their lives a couple weeks - not exactly how I want to die and our nation can't afford it. Time to go write my elected officials.
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No. 43
from romie
Old Oct 20, 2009, 12:18 PM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
A positive message: During my clinical rotation on a geri psych floor, a woman in her late 80s was brought in from her dilapidated home with confusion. A medical workup indicated that she had ovarian cancer. Fortunately the oncologist was very caring and explained to the patient that she had a year to live without treatment and maybe 2-3 more years with treatment. Patient refused. I feared the worse, but a the hospital ethics head met with the family, social services was involved, and it was determined that the patient still had medical decision capacity, even though she had lost most of her ability to care for herself. The POA, physicians and ethicist supported the patient. She had palliative care at home and died peacefully.

I wish we had more of these stories. Most of my patients have vents, feeding tubes, TPN, decubs the size of bowling balls, are not with it at all and are on every IV antibiotic due to sepsis and will be on antibiotics for the rest of their "lives".
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No. 44
from nursejoy1
Old Oct 20, 2009, 06:39 PM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
Originally Posted by SuesquatchRN View Post
It's a smart nurse who listens to the aides.

I always tell our CNAs that they are the eyes and ears of the nurses and the arms, legs hands and feet of the residents. A good CNA is worth their weight in gold!
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No. 45
from diane227
Old Oct 22, 2009, 05:33 AM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
They had to study this to figure this out? How much money did they get to do this study? I bet that money could have hired a few more people to give a little more care. All you have to do to study this problem is to walk into any care facility, especially on the night shift to see how short staffed they are and how much more help they need. And then take a look at the profits the owners of these places are making. You don't have to do a study to do this.
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No. 46
from tewdles
Old Oct 22, 2009, 06:32 AM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
Three things that our elected officials live on...studies, polls, and money...
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No. 47
Old Oct 24, 2009, 04:04 AM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
Originally Posted by tewdles View Post
Having worked in the acute care setting, home care, and hospice I would say that pain control in the elderly is no where near optimal. Too many elderly both in their private homes and in LTC and assisted living facilities are living with daily pain that seriously impacts their quality of life. Some of these people are not able to adequately communicate their levels of discomfort. Many, however, are simply poorly managed by their medical team. I find this fact horrifying, sad, and all too common.
Surprisingly, I find that many of the persons actually providing the care to elderly residents of LTC have little knowledge about the health issues most prevalent in the geriatric population. Looking at this "futile care" from that perspective then makes a bit more sense...they really DON'T know what kinds of things to look for, what signs and symptoms to anticipate, what strategies might improve quality of life or health outcomes. Don't get me wrong...there are lots of excellent geriatric health professionals out there...there just needs to be many, many more. And the education needs to get all the way to the person wiping poop off of wrinkled butts.
In terms of advanced directives and health planning for the elderly...most of these families simply need a rational, compassionate, well informed health professional who will provide honest information for them. We (as a medical community) need to stop fearing death and focus more on quality of life and the wishes of the person. Our traditional medical system remains very much in the business of advocating for "one more" pill, or procedure, or treatment; even when the bulk of the data suggests that such options will be unlikely to increase the life span and may well actually decrease the overall quality of life in some fashion. The "risk vs benefit" value of some of these options is not even discussed in some cases with the family or patient! Take for instance, the 80 something person who is diagnosed with a cancer of some sort...and the MD recommends a course of chemo and radiation even though they are well aware that the success rate may be below 50% for an increased life span. Some docs will not even discuss, honestly, with the patient and family the negative effect the treatments will have on the quality of life that patient will experience. The SE of the chemo, the hours spent in chemo, in radiation, in appointments, the multiple blood draws...etc, etc, etc. Given the ACTUAL options, a reasonable percentage of those elderly may opt to enjoy their lives and forego the treatment. It is fine if people want to go out with guns blazing...however, there are many people who are really at peace with their lives, with their mortality, and with the concept of death. Perhaps the mistake that some families make is in assuming that if their elderly loved one is resident in a LTC that they are receiving good oversight of their medical care and needs. The families often do not realize that THEY must be the ones to advocate for timely, appropriate medical care. Take for example a case I dealt with just yesterday...the bedside aids had reported to their superiors last week that an elderly dementia patient had a foul smelling vaginal discharge, the superiors did NOTHING with that info, they didn't even bother to advise the family. When they told me, I assessed it, notified the family and the doctor, and got an RX for the most likely cause of the discharge. No reason the demented woman must suffer through a vaginal infection simply because she cannot complain of the itch or discomfort. In this case there was no professional advocating for this patient although the family sort of expected there was.
You make many good, true points. How will we/you do them? It is one thing to know what the trouble is, another to know what to do about it, and still another to actually meet the needs, solve the problems. I'm not putting you on the spot but just wonder how to do this.

The nurse can quietly do as you did - get the particular problem of the moment addressed. Numerous times, I have been the one to finally get an order for a pain med, cough, whatever, that has been not obtained for many shifts before mine - 2 or 4 or 7 days of shiftsBut suppose the nurse is lazy or too busy with higher priority works, suppose there is a personnel or budgetary shortfall, a resistant family or bad doctor, lack of supplies or skill, lazy, hiding, or genuinely devoted but overworked aides, on and on.
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No. 48
from tewdles
Old Oct 24, 2009, 07:36 AM

Default Re: Studies: Some Nursing Home Elderly Get Futile Care
Vito...I understand what you are saying. This is my mission, really. Not only to provide good care to people who are nearing death...but (perhaps most importantly) educating people about care options, dignity at end of life, assessment of pain, etc. I am an optimist by nature, so I believe that we can change practice one person at a time. We can change the common experience, one person at a time. I believe that I can impact the future practice of many CNAs, LPNs, and RNs with good collegial support on a regular basis. Nurses are famous for "lateral violence" in the workplace. We are characterized as "eating our young". I don't buy into that philosophy and I intentionally don't practice that way. I learn new things every day and I try to share things I have learned over the decades with newer nurses and aides. Fortunately, I am in a position currently to even provide info WITH ceu's for staff at nursing homes. There are certainly lots of reasons that people don't do what they should do when it comes to patients...if I spent too much time thinking about some of those reasons it would really *tick* me off. So I pretty much stick to interacting with the people who actually seem interested in the quality of care and life that their patients enjoy.
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