Poverty Is Hazardous to Your Health - page 6

The patient, mother of a month-old baby, was crying on the phone because for the past two days she had been tormented by head lice (Pediculosis capitis, if you really want to know). A simple problem,... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Thread temporarily locked for moderator discussion. Thank you!
  2. by   SmilingBluEyes
    PS:
    typing in all capital letters on the www. is considered "shouting" and poor net etiquette and this site is no different. It does not make your point any more clear or emphasize it anymore, but rather can distract.

    Please take note. Thanks.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Oct 9, '07
  3. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from HM2Viking
    .[/B]

    As the OP of this thread I want to remind everyone that the central point was that as a society we can spend money better and smarter to improve the health of our patients.
    Thread re-opened for now.

    The above quote from the OP says it well. Please, can we keep race out of this and refrain from attacking each other. If not, the thread will be locked permanently. Thanks.
  4. by   cmo421
    It was mentioned in a previous post that all a family had to do to reach middle classes was have both adults work full time. Do u not read the papers? Depending on where u live ,many adults are considered the working poor. Two incomes does not guarentee finacial solvency. It does nothing but make some famililies ineligable for the minimum of help. I still think it goes back to education and a reasonable kick start in life. "There but for the grace of God go I"
  5. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from cmo421
    It was mentioned in a previous post that all a family had to do to reach middle classes was have both adults work full time. Do u not read the papers? Depending on where u live ,many adults are considered the working poor. Two incomes does not guarentee finacial solvency. It does nothing but make some famililies ineligable for the minimum of help. I still think it goes back to education and a reasonable kick start in life. "There but for the grace of God go I"
    Both of my parents worked when I was growing up. We were lower middle class, what you refer to as 'working poor'. There were 5 of us kids. We didn't have lots of stuff. We certainly didn't have cable television. I can remember it being a BIG deal when we got a VCR, years after others did. We had one car for a family of 7 - I can remember riding on laps in the back seat.

    We weren't poor.

    There is this sliding definition of poverty. Poverty is NOT "can't afford a cable modem, or a 2nd car." It isn't.

    Two incomes don't guarantee financial solvency if you are millionaires. The reason why is because two incomes don't ensure sound financial management. Two incomes, in almost every case, DOES provide enough for the big 4: food, housing, clothing, transportation. It might not provide enough for steak every night, or a LEXUS, or a trip to the mall for clothes twice a month, but you can't tell me that two full time incomes don't equal escaping poverty. In fact, you don't suggest that, you just wrap it up in a cute euphamism: working poor. That's an oxymoron.

    When the government breaks down income, by household, this is what it consistently finds:

    Lowest 20% - 1 wage earner per household, part time.

    Next lowest 20% - 1 wage earner per household, full time.

    Middle 20% - 2 wage earners per household

    2nd highest 20% - 2 wage earners per household

    Highest 20% - a mix between 1 and 2 wage earners, per household.

    2 full time incomes is enough to place the average household in the middle to upper range of income salaries.

    In fact, since I haven't read these papers that cite them all the time, point to me 1 example of 2 FULL TIME incomes equating to poverty.

    Proverbs 10: 3-5
    "The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry but thwarts the cravings of the wicked. Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. He who gathers crops in the summer is a wise son, but he who sleeps during harvest is a disgraceful son."


    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Oct 10, '07
  6. by   L P N to B
    all i am saying is that the people who need help the most get it the least and not for lack of trying. there are several other circumstances. we hear poverty and think dirt poor. poverty could be working full time and not have enough to meet the demands of life. the other issue could just be about paying for the things that insurance does not cover and how that can make a situation go from bad to worse and people should not try to hide behind religion and place blame on people being poor and calling them lazy. i don't know anyone who wants to actually be poor. i come from what is considered middle class and i see the constant struggle for those who have and knwo it must be hell for the have nots or the have not too much


    helloooooooooooooo this is me, thanx. i bust my a** trying to get ahead and i just cant do it. for example..... i started catching up on some bills.... and i dont mean ones i made through my own stupidity lol... i.e. credit cards..... but anyway... yea i started catching up on car payments and car insurance... things like that...... well my asthma just landed me in the hospital for a week.... and i have no health insurance. now i owe my sons pre-school over $600 two extra months of car payments and car insurance....etc. (on top of other debts) but now i have to figure out, at only making $400 a week tops, how i am supposed to catch up on these things and at the same time buy formula and diapers for my baby, keep my son in school, and keep my car so i can continue to work to play this never ending game of "catch up". btw. i am pregnant. so i guess this is where you can throw me in the "can not reasonably afford to have children" (can you tell i am still upset at that comment lol) category as previously mentioned in this post. s**t happens...... but i am a damn good mother...... with unfortunate circumstances.

    to the people that know where i am coming from...... keep your head up! keep laughing and smiling!!! things will get better!!!!

    and to the ones who dont have it "so rough" : try to have a little more compassion and be a little more understanding. one day your circumstances may change and you may very well end up in the same place as the people you are looking down on.:trout:
  7. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from l p n to b


    helloooooooooooooo this is me, thanx. i bust my a** trying to get ahead and i just cant do it. for example..... i started catching up on some bills.... and i dont mean ones i made through my own stupidity lol... i.e. credit cards..... but anyway... yea i started catching up on car payments and car insurance... things like that...... well my asthma just landed me in the hospital for a week.... and i have no health insurance. now i owe my sons pre-school over $600 two extra months of car payments and car insurance....etc. (on top of other debts) but now i have to figure out, at only making $400 a week tops, how i am supposed to catch up on these things and at the same time buy formula and diapers for my baby, keep my son in school, and keep my car so i can continue to work to play this never ending game of "catch up". btw. i am pregnant. so i guess this is where you can throw me in the "can not reasonably afford to have children" (can you tell i am still upset at that comment lol) category as previously mentioned in this post. s**t happens...... but i am a damn good mother...... with unfortunate circumstances.

    to the people that know where i am coming from...... keep your head up! keep laughing and smiling!!! things will get better!!!!

    and to the ones who dont have it "so rough" : try to have a little more compassion and be a little more understanding. one day your circumstances may change and you may very well end up in the same place as the people you are looking down on.:trout:
    i'm very compassionate. i also believe in charity. gov't entitlements are not charity. something fundamental is lost when the government tries its hand at charity. one thing is for sure, the government could never be compassionate enough or moral enough to truly be 'charitable'.

    i'm not picking on you, but you provided yourself as an example.

    1. credit card debt. (certainly poverty inducing, but not being able to pay credit card bills is not a definition of poverty.)

    2. formula instead of breastfeeding (unless you have a medical need - and then, there is wic for that - a program i actually do support.)

    3. car notes instead of buying a clunker and slowly moving up in transportation. (dave ramsey says if everybody chucked the idea of car notes and put that money in retirements accounts, we'd all be millionaires. go buy you a clunker of a car, and drop the car note. car notes on marginal incomes create poverty. the inability to pay those notes is not a definition of poverty.)

    4. preschool instead of other options - like family. whatever happened to the concept of family? oh yeah, right, the government came in and took over.

    5.the implication is that you are a single parent. (if this is not the case, then you should have an extra means of support, and you indicated you were doing everything on your own salary.)

    6. pregnant, again, before becoming financially solvent.

    look, i'm not knocking any of these decisions. i'm just pointing out that they were decisions on your part. you made choices. these aren't 'unfortunate circumstances'. they are specifically created circumstances, created by you. if there weren't consequences for your choices, what would prevent you from making more such choices? what would motivate you to avoid those consequences?

    more to the point, you have the power to change those circumstances. your profile indicates just that, that you are going to school to become a nurse. so, you prove my point: poverty is a choice - and so is taking the steps to escape it.

    i wish you well.

    ~faith,
    timothy.
  8. by   cmo421
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Both of my parents worked when I was growing up. We were lower middle class, what you refer to as 'working poor'. There were 5 of us kids. We didn't have lots of stuff. We certainly didn't have cable television. I can remember it being a BIG deal when we got a VCR, years after others did. We had one car for a family of 7 - I can remember riding on laps in the back seat.

    We weren't poor.

    There is this sliding definition of poverty. Poverty is NOT "can't afford a cable modem, or a 2nd car." It isn't.

    Two incomes don't guarantee financial solvency if you are millionaires. The reason why is because two incomes don't ensure sound financial management. Two incomes, in almost every case, DOES provide enough for the big 4: food, housing, clothing, transportation. It might not provide enough for steak every night, or a LEXUS, or a trip to the mall for clothes twice a month, but you can't tell me that two full time incomes don't equal escaping poverty. In fact, you don't suggest that, you just wrap it up in a cute euphamism: working poor. That's an oxymoron.

    When the government breaks down income, by household, this is what it consistently finds:

    Lowest 20% - 1 wage earner per household, part time.

    Next lowest 20% - 1 wage earner per household, full time.

    Middle 20% - 2 wage earners per household

    2nd highest 20% - 2 wage earners per household

    Highest 20% - a mix between 1 and 2 wage earners, per household.

    2 full time incomes is enough to place the average household in the middle to upper range of income salaries.

    In fact, since I haven't read these papers that cite them all the time, point to me 1 example of 2 FULL TIME incomes equating to poverty.

    Proverbs 10: 3-5
    "The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry but thwarts the cravings of the wicked. Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. He who gathers crops in the summer is a wise son, but he who sleeps during harvest is a disgraceful son."


    ~faith,
    Timothy.

    One thing that life has taught me is that going round and round always makes a circle. Have a great day and may your strong beliefs and judgement of others never kick u in ur behind.
  9. by   L P N to B
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    I'm very compassionate. I also believe in charity. Gov't entitlements are not charity. Something fundamental is lost when the government tries its hand at charity. One thing is for sure, the government could never be compassionate enough or moral enough to truly be 'charitable'.

    I'm not picking on you, but you provided yourself as an example.

    1. Credit card debt. (certainly poverty inducing, but not being able to pay credit card bills is NOT a definition of poverty.)

    2. Formula instead of breastfeeding (Unless you have a medical need - and then, there IS WIC for that - a program I actually do support.)

    3. Car notes instead of buying a clunker and slowly moving up in transportation. (Dave Ramsey says if everybody chucked the idea of car notes and put that money in retirements accounts, we'd all be millionaires. Go buy you a clunker of a car, and drop the car note. Car notes on marginal incomes CREATE poverty. The inability to pay those notes is not a definition OF poverty.)

    4. Preschool instead of other options - like family. Whatever happened to the concept of family? Oh yeah, right, the government came in and took over.

    5.The implication is that you are a single parent. (if this is NOT the case, then you should have an extra means of support, and you indicated you were doing everything on your own salary.)

    6. Pregnant, again, before becoming financially solvent.

    Look, I'm not knocking ANY of these decisions. I'm just pointing out that they WERE decisions on your part. You made choices. These aren't 'unfortunate circumstances'. They are specifically created circumstances, created by you. If there weren't consequences for your choices, what would prevent you from making more such choices? What would motivate you to avoid those consequences?

    More to the point, YOU have the power to change those circumstances. Your profile indicates just that, that you are going to school to become a nurse. So, you prove my point: poverty is a choice - and so is taking the steps to escape it.

    I wish you well.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.

    you know something... POVERTY IS FAR FROM A CHOICE. WHO THE HELL CHOOSES TO BE BROKE? whether i am single or not is not your business.... i have a BOYFRIEND. a GREAT boyfriend who is doing everything he can to help. i have a SICK MOTHER who is PERMANENTLY DISABLED whom I take care of.....and who is getting DIVORCED because my stepfather kept STEALING her MEDS. OUR HOUSE IS FORECLOSING because her SSD isnt enough to cover the MORTGAGE. YES. i have a CAR NOTE because the CLUNKER I HAD DIED and I DIDNT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO GET ANOTHER "CLUNKER" SO I HAD TO GO FOR A NO MONEY DOWN FINANCE. PRESCHOOL.... so my son can get out in the real world and learn what its like to "socialize" with ppl and children other than FAMILY.... WHICH BY THE WAY I DONT EVEN HAVE OTHER THAN MY MOTHER. so finding FAMILY TO WATCH HIM instead of sending him to PRESCHOOL is out of the question. and BREAST FEEDING IS A WOMAN' PERSONAL CHOICE. AGAIN NOT YOUR BUSINESS. AND FOR THE RECORD... I DIDNT SAY CREDIT CARD BILLS WAS A DEFINITION OF POVERTY. I CLEARLY SAID IT WAS MY OWN STUPID MISTAKE. AND ALSO... NO I DONT HAVE THE POWER TO CHANGE IT ALTHOUGH IT NICE TO THINK THAT.... I CANT EVEN AFFORD NURSING SCHOOL NOW. THANK YOU THO. and no being put in the hospital for my asthma was not a personal choice. yes. it was an unfortunate circumstance. sorry to burst your almighty bubble there buddy. and so u KNOW i didnt CHOOSE to become PREGNANT AGAIN........ once again not your business.... but i WENT TO THE HOSPITAL for the a.m. after pill. i was told it was not POSSIBLE for me to b pregnant already. i STRONGLY DISAGREED AND they REFUSED to give me the pill. i did not KNO that it was available over the counter. NO ONE INFORMED OF THIS. and since you are "o so religious" im sure you can understand why PERSONALLY i am AGAINST abortion.


    THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK. :angryfire



    i understand everyone is entitled to their opinions. all i am saying is making such an IGNORANT statement as "poverty is a choice" really really irks me. NO ONE in their RIGHT mind wakes up and says "hmmm today i think ill be broke." YES, you can make the CHOICE to take steps to get OUT of poverty, but it is NOT easy to GET THERE. take the time to COMPLETELY understand a person's situation before making comments on the "consequences of their actions".


    and one more thing. i wasn't crying POVERTY. i was simply saying i understand where people who are living paycheck to paycheck are coming from.
    Last edit by L P N to B on Oct 10, '07 : Reason: needed to add after my blood stopped boiling lol
  10. by   Spidey's mom
    The point Timmy is trying to make is that many of the things that push us into a serious financial situation are things that we do to ourselves. Not all - you of course cannot cure your own asthma. And your mom's medical problems are not within your control.

    But we can change. Learn from our mistakes. Make better decisions.

    I've known Tim for a long time here on the bb . ..he is not "judgmental" in the way you perceive . . . . although he does make judgments. We all must have the ability to make good judgments. It doesn't make us "judgmental".

    steph
  11. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from L P N to B
    POVERTY IS FAR FROM A CHOICE. WHO THE HELL CHOOSES TO BE BROKE?
    NOBODY chooses to be broke. However, people everyday make decisions that lead to that outcome. In other words, choices.

    There is a penchant, both in government and in individual households, to spend more than is earned. For THAT reason, many people that make much more than you or I also choose to be, 'broke'.

    "The Millionaire Next Door" offers a simple gameplan for wealth. It can be expressed in one sentence: Consistently spend less than you earn.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Oct 10, '07
  12. by   ZASHAGALKA
    I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I understand that it is an unpopular viewpoint today to have the audacity to suggest that poverty is a choice.

    This viewpoint goes lockstep with the idea that values have no place in government and government has the responsibility to care for everybody. If A=B and B=C then A=C - values have no place in responsibility.

    The results should be predictable.

    I'm not picking on anybody. I have made a principled statement that is at the core of my values: hard work and morals lead the way out of poverty. Your grandparents were taught that, as were their parents, and theirs. YOUR parents were taught that, even if they didn't fully believe it. I KNOW it's heresy today.

    That doesn't make it any less truthful.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  13. by   ZASHAGALKA
    A sampling of the basis of my beliefs:

    Proverbs 10: 3-5
    The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry but thwarts the cravings of the wicked. Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. He who gathers crops in the summer is a wise son, but he who sleeps during harvest is a disgraceful son.

    Proverbs 11: 24-26
    One man gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty. A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed. People curse the man who hoards grain, but blessings crown him who is willing to sell.

    Proverbs 12: 9-11
    Better to be a nobody and yet have a servant, than to pretend to be somebody and have no food. A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel. He who works his land will have abundant food, but he who chases fantasies lacks judgment.

    Proverbs 13:4
    The sluggard craves and gets nothing, but the desires of the diligent are fully satisfied.

    Proverbs 13:11
    Dishonest money dwindles away, but he who gathers money little by little makes it grow.

    Proverbs 13:18
    He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored.

    Proverbs 14:23
    All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.

    Proverbs 15:19
    The way of the sluggard is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway.

    Proverbs 17:16
    Of what use is money in the hand of a fool, since he has no desire to get wisdom?

    Proverbs 21:20
    In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all that he has.

    Proverbs 22:7
    The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Oct 10, '07

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