Poverty Is Hazardous to Your Health - page 21

The patient, mother of a month-old baby, was crying on the phone because for the past two days she had been tormented by head lice (Pediculosis capitis, if you really want to know). A simple problem,... Read More

  1. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from twotrees2
    the reason i escaped poverty is because i refused to listen to people such as yourslef who have the same view as you do about people on welfare. the ones who said i "should stay married " cause it was the right thing to do - and the ones who said it was "bad to be on welfare " ( including my own father - who is much like you unfortunately) - and yes- i am quite proud of me and what i have accomplished. and i will alwasy champion any parent ( male or female) who gets stuck to go ahead swallow thier pride and get help if its available and get out of thier hole. i will always be the thorn in the sides of those who tried to shame me and get me to live a life of living hell just because they thought my actions cause them undo stress and money in thier taxes. to bad- i pay taxes to and i do not begrudge the help to others. i do and will cont to keep people in my prayers who are clueless to never have to get a clue cause it is noot fun. many blessings.
    I disagree. I don't hold a bad view of people on welfare (at least, not because they are on welfare); you do. YOU stated that the only problem with welfare was the abusers. I stipulated that welfare itself is the abuser. I don't think anybody on welfare is abusing the system. If you are entitled, then, you are entitled.

    Get everything you can get. I would. I don't think it's bad 'to be' on welfare. I think it's bad that we have welfare at all. There is a distinct difference.

    I disagree with the notion that there are welfare abusers. I think welfare is abuse, but that isn't the same as transferring that concept to the recipients. If anything, I feel sorry for welfare recipients for being sucked into poverty by the gov't, in the name of compassion.

    I feel admiration for the rare person that can succeed, despite gov't efforts to keep them down.

    You seem to think I don't think people should be helped. You are wrong. My beef is that I don't think welfare IS help. For most users, it's a trap.

    I don't think you should have stayed married to an abuser. I never said that. But listen, twotrees. Believe me. If the gov't didn't have a single social welfare program, YOU would have landed on your feet. How do I know this? Because. EVEN WITH THE SOCIAL WELFARE SYSTEM AIMED DIRECTLY AGAINST YOU, you did. You surely could have done so without being enabled into poverty. You proved that. I just feel sorry for those not empowered, like you, to escape those gov't chains.

    Look, my idea of community was time tested for the course of humanity. This social welfare garbage is a new thing. The result is that it has destroyed the concept of community. Part of the reason why BOTH of us were divorced is that we live in a value-free 'no fault' society. Welfare is just as much a symptom as it is a cause.

    But let me ask you this - you are upset that I said poverty is shameful. And yet. . . you acknowledge here that 'going on welfare' involves swallowing pride. Why is that? Are you suggesting that welfare is shameful, or at least, not prideful? Why would that be? Now don't blame me, you already stipulated you didn't care what I think on this particular topic (shame).

    I'm not clueless, neither am I uncompassionate. I believe welfare TO BE uncompassionate. I think we have decimated our poor communities and committed generations to poverty, all in the name of good intentions. I pray for those people. It's not fun. I agree. I just detest the gov't for enabling more of it.

    If social welfare is such a good thing, then, why hasn't it worked? Forty years and trillions of dollars later, why isn't poverty history? We didn't spend enough money? How much would be enough? We didn't have the right program, even though we have dozens? How many would be enough? Do you know why Clinton had to sign the welfare reform laws that limited welfare: welfare has failed. It is a failed idea. A system of programs designed, by their very nature, to grant incentive to NOT use the proven ladders out of poverty can do little more than enable poverty. That's what we have. There's nothing moral or good about that.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 11, '08
  2. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Let me stipulate this: if you want welfare to do the most good, get Washington out of the picture. Turn the money being used on welfare back to the States. I have no Constitutional conflict with States taxing for social welfare: the 10th Amendment gives them that right.

    Have the States individually craft the best programs for their areas and their local communities. Local gov't is, in reality, a function of State gov't. Get those programs as local as possible.

    The more local you bring those dollars, the more hands on their administration will be. If you want welfare dollars to actually do some good, they have to be given to somebody that isn't just a number that meets the definition of entitlement.

    The closer we come to helping, one on one, the better such aid will be. There is a word for that: community. Washington is not our community.

    I would not object to as much money as necessary being taxed by my State and local community as needed to place aid that is more than money but also, education to overcome.

    See. I trust more local control of spending and I trust more local responsiveness of politicians.

    Washington? Washington is the problem. You understand that this whole time, it is not aid that I object to, but FEDERAL aid. The nature of such aid is not compassion, nor can it be. How compassionate can you be to a nine digit number (aka, just another social security number)? That's all you are.

    The Federal gov't is a monster.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 11, '08
  3. by   HM2VikingRN
    Quote from zashagalka
    if i were ever eligible, in need or not, i would avail myself of every gov't program available. i would suck every dollar back that i could and not lose sleep about it.

    the sooner the entitlement system collapses, the better rational alternatives can find their place.

    in the meantime, i would do, if i could, my part to raid the coffers as much and as well as anybody else.

    ~faith,
    timothy.
    i am not sure that you are being consistent with your professed beliefs about individual morality and how people should behave with this statement.

    a little ot but not by much is special education funding. specal education is a federally and state funded set of both health and educational interventions designed to help children with developmental delays and disabilities "catch up" to their peers. without a federal role through the intervention of both congress and the courts to protect the interests of children and families the states and local school districts would not always assure children access to appropriate education and in fact often denied access to education. (for examples of this phenomenon see the brooke ellison story and radio.)
  4. by   banditrn
    Quote from carolinapooh
    ANIMAL FARM, anyone?
    No, that tale wasn't from Animal Farm - but Animal Farm is a fantastic allegorical story.
  5. by   Jolie
    Quote from hm2viking
    i am not sure that you are being consistent with your professed beliefs about individual morality and how people should behave with this statement.

    a little ot but not by much is special education funding. specal education is a federally and state funded set of both health and educational interventions designed to help children with developmental delays and disabilities "catch up" to their peers. without a federal role through the intervention of both congress and the courts to protect the interests of children and families the states and local school districts would not always assure children access to appropriate education and in fact often denied access to education. (for examples of this phenomenon see the brooke ellison story and radio.)
    interesting that you bring up special education. my younger daughter qualified for special ed services in our school district due to a speech defect. i did not wish to avail ourselves of those services, as we had made other arrangements with a provider i preferred. we paid out-of-pocket for her treatment at a private facility. long story short, i learned that the district was treating her without our consent and over our known objections because they needed to "justify" the position of speech therapist in our school. makes me wonder how many other children they were "treating" unnecessarily, and at what cost!) i had a "come to jesus" meeting with the principal and speech therapist and ordered them to stop immediately or i would be on the phone to the state board of education reporting them for treating my daughter without my consent (a flagrant violation of the no child left behind act), and reporting fraud of treating an child unnecessarily in order to justify a position.

    i'm not saying that happens every day in every district, but there is just as much room for fraud and abuse in education system as in our healthcare system.
  6. by   BlueRidgeHomeRN
    Quote from jolie
    interesting that you bring up special education. .........they needed to "justify" the position of speech therapist in our school. ........, and reporting fraud of treating an child unnecessarily in order to justify a position.

    i'm not saying that happens every day in every district, but there is just as much room for fraud and abuse in education system as in our healthcare system.
    my dh teaches elementary school in an "at-risk" school in our small city (just so you know this isn't ny, la, or chicago..). approximately 25% of his students are so emotionally disturbed that they have a "day treatment" attendent with them throughout the school day. these attendents are there to remove and deal with the child when he/she starts screaming, hitting, or self-mutilating during class.

    another 20% are considered "special education" due to add, bipolar disorder, anxiety, or depression. one of his students had "bipolar disorder" [fairly rare in 10 year olds] as do all five of his siblings. the ssdi payments for each child are approximately $225 @ month, in addition to tanif, etc. the mother fought tooth and nail when her 6 year old was dx'd as only mild add..until the dx was changed to bipolar. certainly there are mentally ill children who need help, but this appears to be the scam-du-jour for some parents and schools.
  7. by   HM2VikingRN
    I wouldn't presume that a "scam" was being conducted. I can't speak to the specifics of the case but I do know that schizophrenia, autism, affective disorders, ADD/ADHD are all genetically inheritable. It is quite possible for family members to have clusters of illnesses.

    The other side to the equation is that children in low income families are more likely to have chronic illnesses including asthma, diabetes, behavioral problems etc. (Asthma has very clear links to living in substandard housing). Poverty is hazardous to health.

    I think that we should all have a "there but for the grace of God" moment when we are thinking about the lives of others who struggle before we make judgements or assumptions about there character or worth as individuals.
    Last edit by HM2VikingRN on Feb 11, '08
  8. by   HM2VikingRN
    Jolie,
    I can't defend the school district's failure to follow due process rules. I do think that the behavior was motivated by a sincere desire to make sure that your daughter's needs were being met rather than for any nefarious reason.

    Speech disorders are one of the most common reasons for special education service referrals. Speech clinicians are like nurses there are not enough to go around.....
  9. by   BlueRidgeHomeRN
    [quote=hm2viking;2655995]i wouldn't presume that a "scam" was being conducted. i can't speak to the specifics of the case but i do know that schizophrenia, autism, affective disorders, add/adhd are all genetically inheritable. it is quite possible for family members to have clusters of illnesses.
    quote]

    [font=book antiqua]six children [half-siblings] with bi-polar disorder diagnosed before age 10?!?!?!
    [font=book antiqua]children who do not need in school treatment, special education, or medication? please..if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
    [font=book antiqua]is it that hard to admit that there are some folks abusing the system??
    [font=book antiqua]
    [font=book antiqua]totally agree with you on asthma, etc..
  10. by   HM2VikingRN
    I did say I just don't know about the specifics of the family. Too many years working in mental health. I have met more than one family with 5 or 6 children of which 5/6 are in mental hospitals or jail. Thats why I wasn't too quick to pull the trigger. I don't deny the existence of some bad actors but I think that the number of bad actors tends to be overstated. Changing environmental conditions and situations tends to change the behavior of people more than anything else. I may be naive but I really believe that most people want to do the right thing.

    On a larger social issue 25-33% of American workers are in low wage/dead end jobs. I think we need to look at ways to help more people get into jobs with a real future if we want to be serious about reducing the role of public assistance in our economy.

    Low-wage workers and their families face rising levels of economic insecurity. Analysts estimate that anywhere from a quarter to a third of U.S. workers—35 to 46 million—hold low-wage jobs that provide few prospects for advancement and wage growth.1 Further, such jobs typically offer few of the employer-sponsored benefits—such as health insurance, paid sick leave, retirement plans, and the flexibility to deal with family needs—that higher-income workers often take for granted.
    http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp198.html
  11. by   Simplepleasures
    [quote=blueridgehomern;2656013]
    Quote from hm2viking
    i wouldn't presume that a "scam" was being conducted. i can't speak to the specifics of the case but i do know that schizophrenia, autism, affective disorders, add/adhd are all genetically inheritable. it is quite possible for family members to have clusters of illnesses.
    quote]

    [font=book antiqua]six children [half-siblings] with bi-polar disorder diagnosed before age 10?!?!?!
    [font=book antiqua]children who do not need in school treatment, special education, or medication? please..if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
    [font=book antiqua]is it that hard to admit that there are some folks abusing the system??
    [font=book antiqua]
    [font=book antiqua]totally agree with you on asthma, etc..
    i do agree with you that there are some folks out there that are abusing the system, which is incredibly frustrating and sad because there are many who legitimately need the assistance who do not get it or have to wait years to be approved.
  12. by   BlueRidgeHomeRN
    Quote from hm2viking
    i may be naive but i really believe that most people want to do the right thing.

    i'm afraid that your self-assessment may be correct, which is the why you and i have opposite views on this thread and human nature in general.

    i do not feel "most people" want to do "the right thing". human nature leans toward self preservation, pleasure, and taking the path of least resistence, imho. generally kind, educated folks like yourself seem to be unwilling to believe that so many people do not share your altrusism.

    i appreciate your kind heart, but without socialization, education, and a loving environment, and ideally a touch of the divine, homo sapiens tend toward the barbaric and self-serving.
  13. by   HM2VikingRN
    I encourage you to read The Tipping Point. It really does have interesting ideas about changing the social environment and the human condition.

    (Believe me when I say that I have seen and met evil people. THat has actually made me even more dedicated to improving the social condition.)

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