Pennsylvania Joins ADN vs BSN Debate - pg.11 | allnurses

Pennsylvania Joins ADN vs BSN Debate - page 11

When the kind of nursing degree determines hiring By Stacey Burling Inquirer Staff Writer "While John Jerzak, a newly licensed registered nurse, was looking for a job this spring, he... Read More

  1. Visit  leslie :-D profile page
    1
    you're right, moogie.
    i graduated 14 yrs ago, and things have changed a lot...
    esp these past few yrs.

    every.single.day. i get spam ads about nsg shortage, and how i can go a 2 yr nsg license...for free!
    i never open them up, just delete them.
    but that's what is being advertised.

    leslie
    Moogie likes this.
  2. Visit  Moogie profile page
    0
    Quote from PMFB-RN

    *** I have a question. None of the other professions I work with like physicians, pharmacists, OT & PT or PAs punch time clocks like factory workers and nurses. I know my CPA does not punch a time clock. My question is what other fields, where those engaged in it are considered to be "professionals" have to punch a time clock in and out like nurses and factory workers?
    It would be administration's dream if all nurses were salaried. They could require mandatory overtime without paying a cent more.

    On the other hand, they would not have the flexibility to call off nurses when the census is low because they would have to pay them their salary regardless of whether they worked or not.

    I have worked with pharmacists, OTs and PTs who punched a time clock. If we follow your logic that punching a clock renders one not a "professional" and at the same level as a factory worker, perhaps we should abandon educational standards for nurses altogether and tell everyone with good intentions that he/she can go take NCLEX and start work immediately as a licensed nurse.
  3. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    0
    It would be administration's dream if all nurses were salaried. They could require mandatory overtime without paying a cent more.

    *** I was think more along the lines of billing for service like some of the other professions do. I agree with you, that is exactly what administration would do with salaried nurses.

    I have worked with pharmacists, OTs and PTs who punched a time clock. If we follow your logic that punching a clock renders one not a "professional"

    *** What? I didn't say that.

    and at the same level as a factory worker,

    *** I didn't say that either. I just pointed out that they have time clocks in common.
  4. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    0
    Quote from leslie :-D
    pmfb, i agree, if you live/move to an area where adn's are still readily hired, then yes, there are personal advantages to going that route.
    i personally think however, that even in 10 yrs, we'll be seeing less and less of these regional differences.

    it's a great idea to try and work for an employer who offers tuition assistance/reimbursement...
    but this is only if these places will hire the 2 yr nurse, in the first place.
    as stated, eventually i expect this to be only a rare handful, with the bsn being the overall mandate.

    leslie
    *** As far as I know no hospital in Wisconsin limits new grad hires to BSN only. The University of Wisconsin hospital is the only one I have seen that have "BSN preferred" in their job listings but they hire a lot of ADN grads anyway (when they are hiring).
    I think you are right, there will be fewer and fewer regional differences.
    I wonder if the BSN is to be the standard why don't we have a three year BSN like they do in New Zealand and Australia? My mother in law in an RN in New Zealand and they have one path to being an RN, the three year BSN. We already have accelerated 14 month (or so) BSN programs for those why already have a degree in other fields.
    The real reason I don't want to see the ADN go away is because it is the path for a great many 2nd and 3rd career RNs. I firmly believe that these people bring something to nursing that would be sorely missed if the majority of RNs came from traditional university programs.
  5. Visit  Moogie profile page
    1
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    It would be administration's dream if all nurses were salaried. They could require mandatory overtime without paying a cent more.

    *** I was think more along the lines of billing for service like some of the other professions do. I agree with you, that is exactly what administration would do with salaried nurses.

    I have worked with pharmacists, OTs and PTs who punched a time clock. If we follow your logic that punching a clock renders one not a "professional".
    *** What? I didn't say that.

    and at the same level as a factory worker,

    *** I didn't say that either. I just pointed out that they have time clocks in common.
    Could you please clarify what you meant by this, then? I take it that you are inferring that nurses are not professionals because they are required to punch time clocks.

    Quote from PMFB-RN

    *** I have a question. None of the other professions I work with like physicians, pharmacists, OT & PT or PAs punch time clocks like factory workers and nurses. I know my CPA does not punch a time clock. My question is what other fields, where those engaged in it are considered to be "professionals" have to punch a time clock in and out like nurses and factory workers?
    Also, it would be greatly appreciated if you could please learn how to quote people on this forum. It is very confusing when you refuse to quote and instead put three asterisks in front of what you want to say. Since obviously you enjoy debating others, please make your quotes more clear and learn what the "QUOTE" button does.
    CuriousMe likes this.
  6. Visit  Moogie profile page
    0
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    The real reason I don't want to see the ADN go away is because it is the path for a great many 2nd and 3rd career RNs. I firmly believe that these people bring something to nursing that would be sorely missed if the majority of RNs came from traditional university programs.
    I agree with you. Some of the best nurses I know are second or third degree people. They bring wisdom gleaned from life experiences and are able to deal with the pressures of nursing better than graduates who don't have such experiences.

    Unfortunately, those nurses may not get a chance to show how good they are due to changes in hiring patterns. I read on another thread that one hospital received over 1400 applications. HR has to sift through them somehow and it looks like many HR folks are keeping the BSN applications and not acting on the rest. Is it fair? No. Does it mean that the very best nurses are getting jobs? No.

    My point is---we don't know what the employment situation will be in a year or two years. Is it right for anyone to tell a prospective nursing student, especially one with a previous degree, that he/she should go to an ADN program rather than a BSN? Is it right to tout the ADN when the hospitals (at least right now) are not hiring many ADNs and many are cutting tuition reimbursement programs?
  7. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    0
    By that line of thinking, "What's the difference between a CNA and and ADN? 15 months of schooling.
    The CNA course at my CC takes one term (quarter)....the ADN program takes 6 terms (2 academic years)
    Sounds pretty diminishing huh?

    *** But there are real differences between and RN and a CNA. Differences in licensure, pay and responsibility. I don't see those differences between RNs with different entry degrees.

    What on earth does your reply have to do with what you quoted Moogie as saying? I'm sorry you didn't feel like you learned anything from your RN-BS program.....maybe you should have done more research on choosing a program?

    *** The BSN programs I looked at didn't have much in the way of nursing content and what was taught pretty much covered what I had learned the first time I went to college and got a BS degree.

    What Moogie is addressing is what sometimes feels like a ubiquitous level of snark going on such as BSN new grads are book smart but clinically useless, don't have as many clinical days as ADN's because they're taking gen ed classes and don't pass the NCLEX as quickly, well you get the idea. Oh, my favorite is the somewhat less popular but still shows up from time to time "ADN's and BSN's are only a difference in three classes." Rubbish, just rubbish.

    *** I didn't say anything like that. As far as I can recall I can't remember hearing anyone say anything like that. The only time I have ever seen anything like that said was here on Allnurses and of course it's rubbish. I thought that was so obvious as to not need mentioning.

    Obviously a BSN doesn't necessarily make a better nurse....but for goodness sake, it certainly doesn't make them a worse one!

    *** Of course not. I didn't say or imply anything of the sort.

    I think it's hard to logically refute that a BSN makes an RN a better educated nurse. Yet, somehow in nursing that is still considered to be a bad thing....

    *** I don't think a person with an undergrad degree and an ADN is less educated than an RN with a BSN. Certainly there was little in my BSN program that wasn't taught in my first degree.

    Really??? You've never seen the comments I listed above? Or if you have, you don't think they're disrespectful?

    *** I have seen them here on allnurses. I wouldn't dignify them with a response. Never have I heard such comments in person. I have heard snarky comments about ADN RNs in person.

    So, you didn't take any nursing classes in your RN-BS degree?

    *** I did, a couple. But they didn't cover any new ground for me.

    You learned nothing about nursing?

    *** I learned to write in APA. I did not learn anything about nursing.

    Really? Again, I think it might have benefited you to have done more research in finding the right program for you.

    *** I got exactly what I wanted and needed from my BSN program. I see that as meaning it suited me just fine.

    I don't think the BSN degree is about it being "more difficult" more difficult than what?

    *** Why do you have quotation marks around "more difficult"? Who are you quoting?

    What a silly comparison. It's about learning more about nursing, population based nursing, leadership, research, etc.

    *** There was nothing in my BSN program about population based nursing that wasn't covered in my ADN program or learned OJT while working as an RN. The leadership and research portions where a joke compared to the leadership and research taught in my first bachelors degree.

    The hospitals in my area don't share your unit's hiring practice.

    *** I think it's a stupid solution to the problem they had of nurses heading off to CRNA school before their contract was up. I didn't say I thought it was a good practice. In fact I think it's stupid.

    From the posts I've seen across AN about new grad ADN's have real trouble finding work (times are tough all over, but it seems that many ADN's are being told that BSN's are preferred), it doesn't seem that a lot of areas are sharing your hospital's hiring practice.

    *** From what I have observed all nurses without experience are having trouble getting jobs. I haven't noticed ADNs having more trouble but I don't doubt that could be the case in other regions.
  8. Visit  smartnurse1982 profile page
    1
    Everyone has good points but how about the schools making it affordable for experienced adns to get the bsn. As I stated,at about $500 per credit,(for Chamberlain)I don't think I can make the jump any time soon. Is the state going to provide some type of financial assistance?

    If everyone bets a bsn,and employers don't provide an increase in wages to go along with the degree,what's the incentive? If so many people get a bsn,wouldn't the standard for management positions go from a bsn to msn?

    Can a nurse who has an msn can go directly to a managemnt position without any clinical experience?

    One of the most important issues I see getting neglected:What happens to nurses who can't pass the classes necessary for the bsn?
    Even in my lpn to rn program I attended, a large number of lpns couldn't pass the classes for the asn,either nursing courses or classes like english 102.
    Last edit by smartnurse1982 on May 17, '10
    tokidoki7 likes this.
  9. Visit  Moogie profile page
    0
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    What Moogie is addressing is what sometimes feels like a ubiquitous level of snark going on such as BSN new grads are book smart but clinically useless, don't have as many clinical days as ADN's because they're taking gen ed classes and don't pass the NCLEX as quickly, well you get the idea. Oh, my favorite is the somewhat less popular but still shows up from time to time "ADN's and BSN's are only a difference in three classes." Rubbish, just rubbish.
    PMFB, I used to teach in a baccalaureate program. My students were not only book smart but clinically useful and had little trouble adjusting to the real world. I saw no snark by my students, no issues with other programs. My students were respectful of others (I used to make sure they greeted housekeeping in the morning) and although we occasionally shared the floor with AD and PN classes from the tech school, no one had an attitide.

    Sorry, I am too tired and now too busy to get further involved with mental sparring with you.
    Last edit by Moogie on May 18, '10
  10. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    0
    PMFB, I used to teach in a baccalaureate program. My students were not only book smart but clinically useful and had little trouble adjusting to the real world.

    *** No I am sure they didn't have any trouble. It never occured to me that BSN students wouldn't.

    I saw no snark by my students, no issues with other programs. My students were respectful of others (I used to make sure they greeted housekeeping in the morning) and although we occasionally shared the floor with AD and PN classes from the tech school, no one had an attitide.

    *** Well that good. Not that I would have expected anything else. I am not sure why you are telling me this but good for you.
    The snarky attitude I have observed come from certain people in the "BSN as the only point of entry" crowd. Not from any sort of nursing student.
  11. Visit  llg profile page
    5
    Quote from smartnurse1982

    If everyone bets a bsn,and employers don't provide an increase in wages to go along with the degree,what's the incentive? If so many people get a bsn,wouldn't the standard for management positions go from a bsn to msn?

    Can a nurse who has an msn can go directly to a managemnt position without any clinical experience?

    One of the most important issues I see getting neglected:What happens to nurses who can't pass the classes necessary for the bsn?
    Even in my lpn to rn program I attended, a large number of lpns couldn't pass the classes for the asn,either nursing courses or classes like english 102.

    1. The Magnet Recognition Program has already said publically that they expect to be requiring Master's Degrees for people at the level of Department Director in the next few years. In some places, that is already the expectation.

    2. No, it's not usually possible for a person to be hired into a nursing management position without any clinical nursing experience. But there is nothing wrong with people with MSN's working at the bedside. A lot of people do that.

    3. As for people who can't pass the courses required for a degree? ... Well ... That's what "F's" are for. They will not become RN's. Not everyone has the ability (or will to do whatever it takes) to become an RN and society is under no obligation to give everyone the title of priviledges of an RN: it must be earned.
    leslie :-D, elkpark, lindarn, and 2 others like this.
  12. Visit  Jbrock718 profile page
    5
    Quote from smartnurse1982
    If everyone bets a bsn,and employers don't provide an increase in wages to go along with the degree,what's the incentive? If so many people get a bsn,wouldn't the standard for management positions go from a bsn to msn?
    The incentive is to be employable. The original post is a story about a career changer that went and got an ADN and is being told that the hospital he applied for only hires BSNs.

    Right or wrong that is what is happening in some parts of the country.
    hiddencatRN, lindarn, CuriousMe, and 2 others like this.
  13. Visit  smartnurse1982 profile page
    0
    About number 3, a large number of clinical-smart adns who can't pass the bsn classes would get "f",so that would mean they can't progress to having a bsn,is that alright? I'm completly on board with the bsn requirement,but its still out in the open if I would remain employable. I think the worst damage to nursing was done by "UAP", but that's a subject for another day. On another thread on allnurses,and its true,is why nursing is sliding backwards in terms of benefits,pay,etc


Nursing Jobs in every specialty and state. Visit today and find your dream job.

Visit Our Sponsors
Top
close
close