Nurses oppose measure meant to ease their burden - page 14

SPRINGFIELD -- The ever-increasing demands of routine patient care are swamping some nursing homes in the state, and the Illinois General Assembly is weighing a measure designed to help them. But... Read More

  1. by   sbic56
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    Leslie did not do this; I did. Please see my response and corrected post, thank you. and PLEASE read the entire posts, and try to understand what we ARE saying....ok? Thanks!
    I've read 'em all, SBE. I was just saying I wouldn't call people monkeys, not that leslie did.
  2. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from sbic56
    I've read 'em all, SBE. I was just saying I wouldn't call people monkeys, not that leslie did.
    i did not call anyone a monkey but referred to uaps passing meds as a 'monkey task', i.e., you can train someone to do this w/o understanding the implications and all the other knowledge required to properly administer meds. for those who don't require passing meds a skilled procedure is very frightening to me.

    leslie
  3. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Ok , Leslie, I just saw sbic reference your post------ and wanted everyone to know it was not YOU who committed the original "monkey" infraction, but I. I do not mean to refer to UAP's or anyone, for that matter, as "monkeys".

    I think it's time for me to leave. Things are waaaaaaayyyy too hot in here. And it's getting too emotional for anyone to hear or be heard anymore. Maybe we all need to do what Merry is, sleep on it and come back refreshed and ready to debate reasonably and as unemotionally as possible. Night everyone.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Apr 25, '05
  4. by   wjf00
    Quote from sbic56
    Not being able to come up with a better solution, but denouncing one that has been proven in many instances is unreasonable to me.
    In all your posts you never answer the central issue. Your arguments are semantics. As long as the licensed nurse has to sign off on someone elses work, then the med tech is unworkable. It will WORSEN the nursing shortage. Nurses WILL leave the profession before giving up control of their licenses. If the facilities want to pass meds by another means be it a medtech or machine, then DO NOT ask the licensed nurse to sign off on it. Let the facilities themselves take that responsibility. I will NEVER sign off someones elses work. The first day a medtech works on my unit, will be my last day as a nurse. I do not believe I am alone.
  5. by   VickyRN
    Quote from wjf00
    In all your posts you never answer the central issue. Your arguments are semantics. As long as the licensed nurse has to sign off on someone elses work, then the med tech is unworkable. It will WORSEN the nursing shortage. Nurses WILL leave the profession before giving up control of their licenses. If the facilities want to pass meds by another means be it a medtech or machine, then DO NOT ask the licensed nurse to sign off on it. Let the facilities themselves take that responsibility. I will NEVER sign off someones elses work. The first day a medtech works on my unit, will be my last day as a nurse. I do not believe I am alone.
    :yeahthat: I agree entirely and would never work under these circumstances.
  6. by   sbic56
    Quote from wjf00
    In all your posts you never answer the central issue. Your arguments are semantics. As long as the licensed nurse has to sign off on someone elses work, then the med tech is unworkable. It will WORSEN the nursing shortage. Nurses WILL leave the profession before giving up control of their licenses. If the facilities want to pass meds by another means be it a medtech or machine, then DO NOT ask the licensed nurse to sign off on it. Let the facilities themselves take that responsibility. I will NEVER sign off someones elses work. The first day a medtech works on my unit, will be my last day as a nurse. I do not believe I am alone.

    The central issue is figuring out how nurses can care for patients despite an increasing nursing shortage. My posts are based on my own positive experiences with med aides. I know not many agree with me, but I knew that before I made my first post. I doubt many nurses would leave the profession over this, but I also realize that it will take alot of doing before nurses accept med aides in the hospital setting, as they truly believe that they will be held directly responsible for the med aides work. That has not been the case to my experience.

    I'm letting this go for now, as it is clearly a hot button issue with equally strong opinions pro and con. I mainly wanted to serve testimony that I have witnessed it's effectiveness in certain settings.

    Finis!
  7. by   merry nurse
    Quote from sbic56
    The central issue is figuring out how nurses can care for patients despite an increasing nursing shortage. My posts are based on my own positive experiences with med aides. I know not many agree with me, but I knew that before I made my first post. I doubt many nurses would leave the profession over this, but I also realize that it will take alot of doing before nurses accept med aides in the hospital setting, as they truly believe that they will be held directly responsible for the med aides work. That has not been the case to my experience.

    I'm letting this go for now, as it is clearly a hot button issue with equally strong opinions pro and con. I mainly wanted to serve testimony that I have witnessed it's effectiveness in certain settings.

    Finis!
    Hi. I don't have a problem working with a med tech and find most of them responsible adults. They get the education they need and get plenty of hands on experience. I doubt I could find a job without them unless I wanted to get into something besides ltc or hospital work. Thats MY opinion.
  8. by   merry nurse
    Oh, yeah. I never sign off anything a med tech has done or an l.p.n. who may pass med working with me. i have had med techs, l.p.n.s and r.n.s passing meds who have made med errors, but I never was reprimended for what they did, they got the warnings and were let go if necessary. I was skeptical at first, about 10 years ago, but realized most are great and competant. I believe this has helped our nursing shortage as sometines there is just no where to pull licenced staff from.We import from other countries, which I find helpful too. We need to encourage the young people to go into nursing, after all they will always have a good payng job.
  9. by   pickledpepperRN
    We sometimes clean rooms between patients at night when houskeeping is cleaning a delivery room or in the busy ER.

    What I ask those of you whose facility "cannot find enough licensed staff"
    DO THEY FIND NURSES DURING THE JCAHO SURVEY?

    RN staffing saves lives:

    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...ct/288/16/1987

    Vol. 288 No. 16, October 23, 2002

    Hospital Nurse Staffing and Patient Mortality, Nurse Burnout, and Job Dissatisfaction
    Linda H. Aiken, PhD,RN; Sean P. Clarke, PhD,RN; Douglas M. Sloane, PhD; Julie Sochalski, PhD,RN; Jeffrey H. Silber, MD,PhD
    JAMA. 2002;288:1987-1993.

    Context The worsening hospital nurse shortage and recent California legislation mandating minimum hospital patient-to-nurse ratios demand an understanding of how nurse staffing levels affect patient outcomes and nurse retention in hospital practice.

    Objective To determine the association between the patient-to-nurse ratio and patient mortality, failure-to-rescue (deaths following complications) among surgical patients, and factors related to nurse retention.

    Design, Setting, and Participants Cross-sectional analyses of linked data from 10 184 staff nurses surveyed, 232 342 general, orthopedic, and vascular surgery patients discharged from the hospital between April 1, 1998, and November 30, 1999, and administrative data from 168 nonfederal adult general hospitals in Pennsylvania.

    Main Outcome Measures Risk-adjusted patient mortality and failure-to-rescue within 30 days of admission, and nurse-reported job dissatisfaction and job-related burnout.

    Results After adjusting for patient and hospital characteristics (size, teaching status, and technology), each additional patient per nurse was associated with a 7% increase in the likelihood of dying within 30 days of admission and a 7% increase in the odds of failure-to-rescue. After adjusting for nurse and hospital characteristics, each additional patient per nurse was associated with a 23% increase in the odds of burnout and a 15% increase in the odds of job dissatisfaction.

    Conclusions In hospitals with high patient-to-nurse ratios, surgical patients experience higher risk-adjusted 30-day mortality and failure-to-rescue rates, and nurses are more likely to experience burnout and job dissatisfaction.
  10. by   JeannieT
    I'm a 1st semester Nursing student and you know what our professors say? You NEVER EVER EVER EVER sign off on another Nurse giving a med or you are putting your license directly at risk. I do not think Med Aides are the answer to the problem of the Nursing shortage and it sounds like Hospital Administration once again putting Nurses licenses at risk for their own needs.

    Scary.

    I too would not work with a Med Aid as it has taken me too long to get this far and I have 2 more years to go.

    No thanks!
  11. by   JeannieT
    I have to reply to this topic again:

    What is the point of taking A&P I and II and Microbiology and the gobs and gobs of general education (psychology, etc) and then 2 years (for an ASN degree) and then have Med Aides with minimal training handling the riskiest part of the Nurse's job?

    I'd reconsider becoming a Nurse but I think I will finish my degree so I can pay off all my schooling bills before thinking about going back to school again and getting out of Nursing.

    This crapola really scares me. Why must we, as Nurses, constantly be standing and fighting for our rights?

    It was well said by another that we have digressed to the 1800's - the chauvanism and lack of respect shown for Nurses by the "industry" is staggering. I got more respect and job security as a secretary and in my small town in AZ, I am not earning that much less than a Nurse (just a few dollars per hour).

    PATIENT ADVOCACY and NURSE'S WORKING CONDITIONS are two concepts that are so intertwined that you can't effect one without effecting the other.

    All of these issues are not just about Licenses David - they are about the safety and security of people who are sick who need a licensed professional who is going to protect them.

    If Med Tech's (UAP's) had their own license then I would say MORE POWER TO YA but we all know that they would then be required to go through a intensive program just like Nurses and suddenly "the industry" would realize it takes them as long to get through school and the UAP's would start to demand more money for all that knowledge and time in school.

    I can't even believe there are Nurses anywhere willing to risk their license on the "oh it won't happen to me" loosely held theory.

    Complain to the ANA and NLN about these kinds of issues in addition to venting here. I just let my entire school know about this through email for the sake of awareness because many leave this state and move across the country.
  12. by   RN4NICU
    Quote from spacenurse
    What I ask those of you whose facility "cannot find enough licensed staff"
    DO THEY FIND NURSES DURING THE JCAHO SURVEY?
    I think you are onto something here. Instead of focusing on piddly things like whether I chart cc or ml or whether I can parrot to them how many different ways I can identify the patients, why don't they make it their new safety goal to set minimal patient to RN ratios and look back at staffing reports (not just whether the units appear well staffed during the visit) the way they look at competency files, etc. Nurse retention would take on a whole new meaning if the hospitals' precious JCAHO accreditation were in jeopardy.
  13. by   merry nurse
    Quote from RN4NICU
    I think you are onto something here. Instead of focusing on piddly things like whether I chart cc or ml or whether I can parrot to them how many different ways I can identify the patients, why don't they make it their new safety goal to set minimal patient to RN ratios and look back at staffing reports (not just whether the units appear well staffed during the visit) the way they look at competency files, etc. Nurse retention would take on a whole new meaning if the hospitals' precious JCAHO accreditation were in jeopardy.
    Please, thoughtfully, consider this scenerio. In the REAL world we may work in a long term care facility on the 2nd or 3rd flloor and have 75 residents we are responsible for, plus if we are on the 2nd or third shift or on a weekend we may be responsible for a 200 bed facility as an acting supervisor. Even if the other flloors manage by themselves without problems we still have our floor and hopefully it will be quiet. Some residents are l.t.c. and need assist with adl's, maybe a treatment her and there, some may be declining, some may have various stages of dementia and are combative to staff and othe residents.Some have frequent falls and all this requires tons of paper work, alot forwarded to "the state". I cannot pass meds to all these people and deliver good nursing care. so , what am I to do? Sometimes I have an l.p.n. to give meds. It makes no difference. They do the same job as the med tech, but can help out at the desk if they have spare time. The med techs can do disposition of meds or ordering or help out the c.n.a.s in their spare time. It all works out. I get my respect! I NEVER doubt that! I am a registered nurse and we play many roles. I NEVER sign off a med another person has given. Where did you get that idea? I do not co-sign anywhere. In Maine the system woks. I really like working in l.t.c., but we all need to wok together. Like I said before, lets encourage more graduates to become nurses and end this nursing shortage.

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