New York poised to require bachelor's degrees for RNs - page 3

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  1. by   nursel56
    Flame me if you must, but I am getting very tired of Physical Therapy and Pharmacy programs mentioned constantly in these discussions. How much do you really know about what is in those programs? How do they work? How do they get "clinical" training? Is a residency built into them?

    In the AACN treatise about the rationale for the DNP you see it again and again. "They" (pharmacy and PT) have a "D" after their name or <fill-in-the-blank> so we should too! and we are worth just as much as they are! To an outsider it sounds like "me too", and not a course of action based on clearly identifiable factors within the profession itself. When doctors decided to create a specialty in Family Practice I seriously doubt they picked a foil from another profession to point to to bolster their argument

    The powers that be cannot insist on the one hand that there is an epic crisis on the horizon due to a nursing shortage, and on the other say we should limit schools and control the number of graduates "churned out".
    .
    If you are hinging this on the idea that "we will finally be seen as a profession" by other sectors of the healthcare team - frankly I doubt it. Maybe if nurses weren't increasingly being treated like children by hospitals that employ them - how to act, what to say, and other activities that make us appear juvenile there'd be a chance.

    Our colleagues evaluate us on our performance in the workplace. Most of the time (in my area) there is no way to know what a nurse's specific background is. I worked with so many nurses when I was younger who took control of their own professional development and became the nurse they realized was needed.

    Just one example of this was what we called the the oncology liaison nurse - back before there was something known as a "nurse practitioner". She took the initiative to further her own education with what was available at the time and became an outstanding resource, and rewarded for it. I can guarantee you and then some that this nurse was seen as a professional.

    I think the NP role was partially created to give these proactive nurses a professional title, but the cart did not come before the horse, which is the direction it seems to be heading in now.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Oct 22, '11
  2. by   ParkerBC,MSN,RN
    Since the market is becoming flooded with nurses, employers are able to dictate the preferred degree. I am sure facilities have influenced the bill to be introduced. However, I doubt something like this will pass. First, the ASN nurses will leave the state to seek employment. Second, schools offering ASN degrees will protest as they will lose tuition revenue if something like this passes. If the state passes such a bill, what will happen to the master prepared nurse educators? I doubt if the majority will return to school to begin working on their doctorate degree. Sure, some colleges/universities may take them, but then the market will be flooded with nurse educators who are not employed in such positions.
    Just an overall bad idea.
  3. by   talaxandra
    Quote from loriangel14
    BSN is already the minimum requirement in Canada.
    Australia, too - those already registered were grandfathered in; for entry into management roles many hospitals have a degree requirement.
  4. by   jeckrn
    Question, if there is only nursing schools in the citys where are the rural hospitals going to get their RN's if they have no feeder schools close by? Because of travel, family time etc. not all students are able to travel 75-90 miles each way to school. With that being said, and the amount of RN-BSN online programs there is nothing wrong with requiring ADN's to obtain thier BSN in a set number of years inorder to renew their license. From what I understand this is what New York is looking at understanding the demand on hospitals & students from rural areas.

    Also, if we want to be looked at more as a profession we need to get rid of the BS that nurses do that is unprofessional. When is the last time you seen PT's/ OT's, MD's, doing little skits etc. like nurses do during nurses week. Wearing shirts that state "Nurses call the shots" and others just make us look like we are a bunch of middle school kids. If I wanted to act like I was still in middle school I would have become a middle school teacher. This is just two examples of many that nurses do to try to be "cute".
    Last edit by jeckrn on Oct 22, '11
  5. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from talaxandra
    Australia, too - those already registered were grandfathered in; for entry into management roles many hospitals have a degree requirement.
    *** How long does it typicaly take a keen high school graduate to finish a bachelors degree in nursing in Australia? Last time I was in New Zealand the nurses there told me it took them three years.
  6. by   jeckrn
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    Well it will take a while (if passed) but it will eliminate the over supply of RNs. At least in NY. That may actually increase wages a little in NY. As was pointed out it does sound bad for rural and underserved areas.
    What part of NY will it eliminate the over supply? Will it be Up/Down State. rural/city? This is a typical action in NYS. They will pass a law which is good for NYC but not so good for the rest of the state. Wonder why NYS has the highest taxes in the country and is dying as a state.
  7. by   jeckrn
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    Well it will take a while (if passed) but it will eliminate the over supply of RNs. At least in NY. That may actually increase wages a little in NY. As was pointed out it does sound bad for rural and underserved areas.
    How will wages go up in NY when the state is constanting decreasing rembersment for medicaid and increasing taxes on revenues for hospitals (profit & non-profit).
  8. by   talaxandra
    That's right, PMFB-RN - three years, four with an honours year.
  9. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from jeckrn
    How will wages go up in NY when the state is constanting decreasing rembersment for medicaid and increasing taxes on revenues for hospitals (profit & non-profit).
    *** Since I have been a nurse I have only seen two things increase nurses wages. A union and a shortage. I don't believe there was ever a real shortage in general, but certainly there have been short term, local shortages, or shortages in specific fields (usually critical care). I believe there is PLENTY of money in health care. I notice that new grads start out at $18 in some areas and $45 in others. I bet both those hospitals recieve close to the same amount of money for each procedure they do. If a hospital, typicaly in a low cost of living area, can get away with paying $18/hour it is cause then, not cause they have to. If they can't find nurses willing to work for $18 they can and will increase the wage (or some other benifit) until they have enough nurses.
    Of course I suppose if they have to increase wages they will cry to congress about the dire "nursing shortage" and have them open the flood gates to nurses from other countries. As if the people in those countries don't need their nurses.
  10. by   PMFB-RN
    Quote from talaxandra
    That's right, PMFB-RN - three years, four with an honours year.
    So an American Associates degree nurse and an Oz RN with a BSN are spending just about the same amount of time in school. Also the same amount if time as a diploma RN. I wonder how much difference there is in what is taught in those 3 years. I wonder if there would be much less resistance to BSN only if it didn't mean more years of school (and great cost)?
    Can you tell me how much a nursing student would typicaly pay for that BSN in your country?
  11. by   lindarn
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** Since I have been a nurse I have only seen two things increase nurses wages. A union and a shortage. I don't believe there was ever a real shortage in general, but certainly there have been short term, local shortages, or shortages in specific fields (usually critical care). I believe there is PLENTY of money in health care. I notice that new grads start out at $18 in some areas and $45 in others. I bet both those hospitals recieve close to the same amount of money for each procedure they do. If a hospital, typicaly in a low cost of living area, can get away with paying $18/hour it is cause then, not cause they have to. If they can't find nurses willing to work for $18 they can and will increase the wage (or some other benifit) until they have enough nurses.
    Of course I suppose if they have to increase wages they will cry to congress about the dire "nursing shortage" and have them open the flood gates to nurses from other countries. As if the people in those countries don't need their nurses.
    It is called, "supply and demand". Less nurses + more $$. And when the NNOC represents nurses, there will be an increase of wages. Nurses need to demand more money for more education, just like PTs, OTs, Phamacists,etc.

    Nurses just take added education for granted, higher certifications, etc, and don't deman more money for the enhancements to their professional enhancements. Why not? When doctors become, "Board Certified", they charge more money for their services. It is expected. Why is/wouldn;t, more education, professional certifications, mean more money for nurses? Because nurses don't want to see othere make more money than they do. They would rather deny higher wages to others who have achieved more, so soothe their feelings of self worth.

    Nurses need to demand more money. Period. If we have to earn a higher educational degree, then we need to demand more money.

    JMHO and my NY $0.02.
    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Somewhere in the PACNW
  12. by   msn10
    I love the typical Australian nursing program!!! It is a 3-year full time (40 hours week) almost all year long like the old diploma program but with more theory. Actually many American nursing students probably wouldn't like it because it is very difficult to work at the same time. A sample we were looking at was very succinct and organized. Man I wish I had more control on what we teach (Can't get accredited unless you teach what the accrediting bodies want you to. If you can't get accredited students can't take NCLEX).
  13. by   msn10
    So an American Associates degree nurse and an Oz RN with a BSN are spending just about the same amount of time in school. Also the same amount if time as a diploma RN. I wonder how much difference there is in what is taught in those 3 years. I wonder if there would be much less resistance to BSN only if it didn't mean more years of school (and great cost)?
    From my understanding the Australian is more like the diploma with theory and sciences imbedded in every course. I think the sciences still need to be separate. The sample we were looking at looks like this:

    NURS1000 2 Theoretical Foundations
    NURS1001 2 Embryology, Neonate & Child
    NURS1002 2 Adolescents & Young Adults
    NURS1003 2 Adults & Older Persons
    NURS1004 2 Clinical Practice 1
    Year 1, Semester 2

    NURS1005 2 Cardiovascular Health
    NURS1006 2 Respiratory Health
    NURS1007 2 Musculo-skeletal Health
    NURS1008 2 Clinical Practice 2
    Year 2, Semester 1

    NURS2001 2 Nutritional & Metabolic Health
    NURS2002 2 Immunological Health
    NURS2004 2 Clinical Practice 3
    Year 2, Semester 2

    NURS2003 2 Neuro-endocrine Health
    NURS2006 2 Injury Prevention
    NURS2007 2 Healthy Ageing
    NURS2008 2 Clinical Practice 4
    Year 3, Semester 1
    Course Code Units Course Title

    NURS3001 6 Clinical Practice 5

    NURS3003 2 Indigenous Health
    NURS3004 2 Mental Health
    NURS3005 2 Acute Medical & Surgical Care
    NURS3006 2 Aged Care
    NURS3009 2 Community Health
    NURS3010 2 Rural Health
    NURS3011 2 Paediatric Care
    NURS3012 2 Speciality Clinical Elective - Palliative Care Nursing

    Year 3, Semester 2
    Course Code Units Course Title
    NURS3002 8 Clinical Practice 6 (Full-time precepted clinical)
    Last edit by msn10 on Oct 22, '11

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