New York poised to require bachelor's degrees for RNs - page 20

by Anxious Patient 22,561 Views | 199 Comments

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    Quote from elkpark
    I graduated from a diploma school in the mid-'80s, and I can assure you that we were not utilized as "slave labor for the hospital" -- although that was true generations ago, it hasn't been the case for a long time. We had better quality clinical experiences than the ADN or BSN students I've taught since then, and a lot more clinical time, which basically served the function of the "residency" you propose (by my senior year of school, we were doing four days of clinical a week, and, while still supervised by our instructors, we were taking nearly a full caseload and basically functioning as RNs). We did graduate ready to "hit the floor" and enter practice with a minimum of orientation.

    I'm as big a fan of higher education (for nurses or anyone else ) as anyone, but, IMO, we've really "thrown the baby out with the bathwater" in nursing education over the last few decades. I have no problem with the general concept of requring a BSN for licensure (although I still don't see it as necessary, or think that it's going to produce all the benefits that some claim), but I would really like to see a serious reworking of how most BSN (and ADN, for that matter) programs are structured.
    Here's the rub; all college degree programs have course requirements mandated by local education departments and usually a "core" from the university/college as well. While it would be great if student nurses could devote more hours to clinical and or nursing classes the reality is in order to obtain that ADN or BSN (especially the latter) one has tons of other course demands to meet as well. Each day spent at a clinical site means one less available for class unless one does say several hours at one then rush back to campus for the other.

    Could things be done differently? Sure. For one thing students in the United States from grade school through college have some of the if not the shortest school year of developed nations. Nursing programs both BSN and ADN ought to take a page from diploma schools of old and run yearly with perhaps a few breaks for winter, spring and summer holidays. By breaks one means a few days before and after the holiday, not weeks before and or after.

    BSN programs should make more use of their four year time table and again take a page from old diploma programs and run three year nursing programs instead of two. Instead of applying to the university or whatever and spending a period of time in "pre-nursing" then formally applying to the program, make the application same for both. Start em off right by hitting the program running.


    College/university programs could again benefit from the old school way of requiring student nurses arrive ready for the work from day one. Such classes as general chem and at least one or two levels of high school algerbra should be gotten out of the way. College nursing programs could also partner with local high schools so potential nursing students could perhaps take AP course work such as organic chemistry (required for any BS degree in NYS). intro to Soc, Psych and so forth.
    talaxandra and lindarn like this.
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    My ADN program included a residency like component; we were required take a 4-5 pt load for 3 eight hr shifts/wk. The state school that I completed my BSN eliminated that from their BSN program in favor of a capstone project (which deals with some form of unit improvement or safety issue) so they graduate without ever managing a patient load. But they can write a paper or complete a Powerpoint presentation like nobody's business!! So much of their nursing education is focused on completing projects and papers instead of building clinical knowledge that they truly struggle when they come out of school.

    We were expected to know our patients inside and out during my ADN program. We had to know meds their actions and side effects, drug interactions, medical complications and interpret lab values and ABGs for each of our patients.

    There are new ADN programs popping up all over the place but the powers that be prefer the BSN for entry to practice? So why are these programs being approved? We have 3 ADN and 3 BSN programs within a 10 mile radius for a 2 hospital city with a pop. < 200,000. Programs are now fighting for clinical sites. Even the BSN programs in my area are doing clinicals on the evening shift now, but only if their instructor is willing to cover the shift and most are not.
    Dakeirus and lindarn like this.
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    A perfect example of why nursing will never rise above itself and be accepted as the professionals they should be regardless of amount of education.

    There, did I manage to offend everyone?
    PMFB-RN and lindarn like this.
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    Thread closed for evaluation.
  5. 1
    A number of posts were removed because they violated the Terms of Service. Others were removed because they referred to the improper posts. Please, report things you think are problematic rather than scold or take on other members within the thread.

    Cautiously reopening thread for a trial run.
    talaxandra likes this.
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    Thanks for reopening the thread

    My nursing experience, though long, is relatively narrow - with the exception of my (hospital-based) rotations to other institutions, my entire career has been at the tertiary hospital where I currently work, and most of that time I've been on a variation of the same ward. We've moved several times, and added units, but kept significant continuity of staff, so that though the average age of nurses at my hospital's 27, there are four nurses I work with who've been on my ward longer than my 18 years there.

    All of this is a prelude to saying that I've never seen anything at work, or heard about from colleagues (who've worked the legnth and breadth of Australia) that comes close to the division there seems to be in the US between differently-educated nurses.

    Given that we've relatively recently reintroduced our LPN equivalents into acute care, it's not that there is tension between different roles, levels of education and degrees of accountability.

    I have to wonder if it's because we transitioned from hospital certificate to tertiary diploma to degree with a minimum of debate and no real opposition, so long ago that the current registration requirement is all many of the workforce here have ever known.
    anniv91106, rn/writer, and lindarn like this.
  7. 1
    Quote from talaxandra
    Thanks for reopening the thread

    My nursing experience, though long, is relatively narrow - with the exception of my (hospital-based) rotations to other institutions, my entire career has been at the tertiary hospital where I currently work, and most of that time I've been on a variation of the same ward. We've moved several times, and added units, but kept significant continuity of staff, so that though the average age of nurses at my hospital's 27, there are four nurses I work with who've been on my ward longer than my 18 years there.

    All of this is a prelude to saying that I've never seen anything at work, or heard about from colleagues (who've worked the legnth and breadth of Australia) that comes close to the division there seems to be in the US between differently-educated nurses.

    Given that we've relatively recently reintroduced our LPN equivalents into acute care, it's not that there is tension between different roles, levels of education and degrees of accountability.

    I have to wonder if it's because we transitioned from hospital certificate to tertiary diploma to degree with a minimum of debate and no real opposition, so long ago that the current registration requirement is all many of the workforce here have ever known.
    What was the motivation to reintroduce LPN equivilents into acute care?
    lindarn likes this.
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    The reintroduction of EN's to acute care went hand in hand with a program extending EN's scope of practice, accountability and responsibility, and increasing the length of study by six month, from a year to eighteen months. An overwhelming majority of EN's go on to a degree and qualify as registered nurses, in part because career and pay prospects are limited.

    The main factor in this move was a shortage of RN's, nationwide. Thanks to the introduction of ratios in Victoria, we have adequate nursing numbers but, thanks to budgetary cuts, have lost 500 graduate places for next year and are currently in negotiation with the government, who want to bring patient assistants into acute care, a move that is being hotly contested by nurses, who start industiral action tomorrow morning.
    lindarn and LockportRN like this.
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    [quote=talaxandra;5858231]All of this is a prelude to saying that I've never seen anything at work, or heard about from colleagues (who've worked the legnth and breadth of Australia) that comes close to the division there seems to be in the US between differently-educated nurses. e]

    *** This division only exsists here and other non-care enviroments. Im my 16 years in nurisng I have never observed or heard of any divisions or friction between nurses with different education backgrounds in the hospital.
  10. 1
    Thanks, PMFB - that's really interesting. Given how strongly members who post about it here seem to feel, I wonder if it's hidden at work because it's not culturally appropriate to discuss in the work place, or if the anonymity of the internet allows rapid and heated polarisation of opinions.
    Fiona59 likes this.


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