New York & New Jersey Considering Mandatory BSN For Entry - page 2
It has been over 40 years since the ANA issued it's position paper regarding making the BSN mandatory for entry into the profession. Now pending bills in the states of New Jersey and New York, if... Read More
2Sep 8, '09 by Reno1978, BSNMy BSN program wasn't too expensive, with credits costing a lil over $100/each. My most expensive semester was under $1800. I definitely thing I was fortunate to go to school in Nevada. Now that I live in Washington and look at UW or WSU for future education, I'm amazed that the cost is 4-6 times what I paid per credit
0Sep 8, '09 by us2uk4uThis will take some major pull in Albany and Trenton to pass. I doubt this will take into effect though. Do not under estimate the lobbying efforts of community colleges and small hospitals. Also, in some parts of NY the only schools within reasonable distance and economically viable is a community college. The University that offered a BSN degree in the area shut down their Nursing program last year.
I plan to get my Masters in the field but it's my choice since I want options in the future. I know nurses with over 20+ years of experience who only have Associates and they are happy with they are doing now.
0Sep 8, '09 by miss81It's been a requirement here in Newfoundland Canada for a few years. The nurses association made this choice because they stated that all nurses have to have extensive clinical and academic mental health and community health nursing in order to be licensed here. All the diploma program nurses have been "grandfathered" in to the system.
0Sep 8, '09 by AZ_LPN_8_26_13Quote from geekgolightlyMoney. Money is the reason a person would choose an ADN. I had no money for a university so I chose a community college. I paid approx $500 a semester for tuition and then books were an extra couple hundred each semester. No way in heck could I have ever afforded a university with my (very small) wages.
That's the main reason I'm taking that route. I go to a community college and am working on my ADN. Based on my GPA so far, my NET scores, etc. my advisors have all told me I should transfer to one of the local universities here that have good BSN programs and just go for that outright. But I just dont have the money to do it. Plus I already have a B.S. (in another field) that I can use to get my MSN after I become an RN. If I'd had the funds, and no debt, I probably would have just gone for the BSN to begin with......Last edit by AZ_LPN_8_26_13 on Sep 8, '09 : Reason: typo
12Sep 8, '09 by lindarnQuote from geekgolightlyDon't individuals who go into PT, OT, Pharmacy, SLP, all have to consider $$$ when they decide on their career path? Yet, in spite of post gradate degrees needed for entry into practice from the get go, they have record numbers of applicants to their programs. Why is that? Because they know that they WILL get a high paying job, far more than nursing, and not have to put up with the same BS that nurses do.Money. Money is the reason a person would choose an ADN. I had no money for a university so I chose a community college. I paid approx $500 a semester for tuition and then books were an extra couple hundred each semester. No way in heck could I have ever afforded a university with my (very small) wages.
Why don't they have to put up with all of the BS? Because they ALL HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF EDUCATION BEFORE THEY ENTER THE PROFESSION! The don't have the division that different levels of education have done to nursing. And he powers that be have made sure that it continues. They are unified, and are in control of their profession, as nursing never will if we allow ourselves to continue in the same path.
While I am at it, LPNs and LVNs need an educational makeover. PT ASSISTANTS, have a two year Associates Degree as entry into practice. All to walk patients around, and do ROM. Nothing that they do or don't do, are considered life threatenting. Yet they out educate us in many ways. It is time for nurses to think about what is best for NURSING, not the individual!
No one in nursing seems to get it. Think out side the box. Fewer nurses coming out of school, mean less competition for the jobs that are out there. And a single level of education will unify us as it has other health care professionals. JMHO and my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
2Sep 8, '09 by jeckrn, BSNQuote from tuttle13until nurses stand up for themselfs they will never be taken as a professional. don's need to stand up and refused to keep adding non-nursing duties to them. until that time us nurses will be looked at as non-professionals. being an er nurse working closely with physicians they also state until nurses act professional, speak in professional terms etc. it will be hard for physicians to see us a professionals.i agree that getting your asn first is much cheaper - that is why i did that as i stated, but i still think that for those who can afford to, just getting a bsn from the start is the best path if it is available to you by location and funds, especially if they pass this law down the road. my former teachers always stated that nursing will never be taken seriously as a profession until we are required to have bsn minimum, and actually a msn minimum like most of the other health care careers. some docs are never going to take nurses seriously as long as they have a phd, and we "only" have an asn.
btw i drove an hour each way to class, plus an hours drive was my closest clinical site - i even had some hospitals that were almost 2 hours away and we had to be there by 6:30am. and that was for an asn.
you where lucky that you where able to drive they way you did. not everyone can, most people who are entering the nursing profession are older, are working & have families. you can say all you want about family support, but you still have to spend time with your kids.
0Sep 8, '09 by jeckrn, BSNQuote from DoGoodThenGoThe VA does not require you to have a BSN to be a floor nurse. To get into anytime of management position you need a BSN. The military requires a BSN (execpt the Army Reserve) because you are an officer first which requires a 4 year degree.North Dakota's mandatory BSN law suffered on several fronts, and IIRC was passed in 1985 and began in 1986, repealed in 2003, not exactly "short order". Maine was the only other state to pass laws regarding entry into practice (BSN for professional nursing, ADN for associate nursing), but due to various problems it was never enacted.
ND's effort failed because of mainly two reasons: lack of support from those in the state's nursing community, and the fact no other state, especially those bordering on ND did not have same requirement.
Two and three year programs were phased out in North Dakota, however those wishing to become nurses and not attend a BSN program simply went over to border states such as Minnesota to attend ADN programs. Part of the original proposal would have allowed ADN nurses to sit for the board, and obtain a license, however they would have to get a BSN within 8 years, but this was not included in the final law.
What NYS proposes is rather a sane approach as it realises not everyone is in the position to go for the BSN at once.
Anyway, regardless of what state BONs are doing, the market place is slowly moving towards BSN anyway. The military and the VA already require a BSN, and many hospitals/other clinicial settings are slowly moving that way as well.
Yes, one knows we have been dancing around the barn on this issue for over forty years, but the fact still remains nursing is unique amoung the professions in that it has several paths to entry.
0Sep 9, '09 by Otessa[quote=DoGoodThenGo;3850056]It has been over 40 years since the ANA issued it's position paper regarding making the BSN mandatory for entry into the profession. Now pending bills in the states of New Jersey and New York, if passed and signed into law would make one or both states first to have such a requirement.
hmmmmLast edit by Otessa on Sep 9, '09
2Sep 9, '09 by DoGoodThenGo[quote=Otessa;3851695]Quote from DoGoodThenGoThank you for posting the above, which supplements my original post. Based my post on what one read in the article, and as that article did not give the numbers to said bills, couldn't research the matter further.It has been over 40 years since the ANA issued it's position paper regarding making the BSN mandatory for entry into the profession. Now pending bills in the states of New Jersey and New York, if passed and signed into law would make one or both states first to have such a requirement.
The entire NYS bill is here: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02079
Now that one has found the bill on NYS's government website and read same, it seems pretty straight forward and in a way yes, does mandate a BSN for entry into the profession in a way, by retention of licensure. Under the bill ADN and Diploma grads would have ten years (with one year extensions granted at pleasure of NYS BON), to obtain their BSN. So unless on has concrete plans on just how one is going to manage going RN to BSN post graduation from a two or three year program, why bother going through the expense and time of nursing school only to loose one's license in ten years? Don't see anything in the bill, but suppose an ADN RN who did not complete or start her BSN studies before the clock ran out could let her license go and apply for reinstatement after obtaining the BSN.
Many of the comments posted so far mirror discussions and comments one has heard recently and over the years regarding ADN versus BSN. What one found interesting then and still so now is the comment regarding needing fast entry into the profession to find a job and other personal reasons. While no one disputes people need to earn a living, however one does not hear the same argument from those seeking to become doctors, lawyers, accountants, and so forth. I mean there is a shortage of primary care doctors, but don't see anyone saying the amount of time it takes to become a MD should be shortened, or a faster entry into that profession should be developed.
On my first day of Med/Surg I lecture, our instructor informed us that nursing was an excellent profession for a young lady for several reasons. First it could be picked up quickly (our ADN program was two years, two and one half if one counts pre-nursing), the profession could also be put down and taken up again just as easily. By this it was inferred nice young girls who married could either scale down their work, or leave it all together, just as nurses had done for ages. Should (horrors) the woman's marriage not work out, or one had to return to work to supplement the household income, nursing would be there. But one has to ask one's self, what sort of a "profession" is that? Granted this was said in the 1980's, but still...
The arguments that ADN and Diploma grads can run rings around a BSN may have rung true years ago, especially when nursing was still primarily a practical profession, but times have changed. Many BSN programs offer their students more clinical time than two or three year programs. Indeed ADN programs are nearly becoming BSN programs in length and some content as the idea of what a competent RN should know. In any event the idea nurses being simply a "handmaiden" doctors is supposedly dead. Blindly following doctor's orders not only is a dangerous way to practice, but can land one in serious legal trouble as well.
2Sep 9, '09 by jeckrn, BSNI have an ADN then completed my BSN. As far as the additional classes I had to take to obtain my BSN their was no, I repeat no classes which would help me take care of patients. The classes would help me if I went in to management. As far as clinical skills most ADN & BSN grads are the same with the ADN's having a slight edge. Sounds like you took hook, line, & sinker of the BSN's are the only real nurses & are god lines that some university give to their students.
If your instructor gave you the following BS about nursing right there proves my early post that until nurses act as professionals we will not be taken as professionals
3Sep 9, '09 by hiddencatRNQuote from oramarThere are plenty of expensive private ADN programs out there. Heck, I've seen LPN programs that cost nearly as much as my accelerated BSN will cost. And in my area, it's only the most expensive ADN program that offers part time and evening options- the other programs are all "full time on our schedule" only. There are also public universities that offer BSN programs.As you say the reason is MONEY HONEY, BSN programs have two prices, expensive to ghastly expensive. While many ADN programs are quite reasonable, especially if they are government sponsered, if you spread two years out over four years it spreads the cost also. In addition, ADN programs are usually quite flexable and can fit into the lives of adult returning students very well. In the past BSN programs were not flexable, but I think that may be changing. They could just do what the Diploma school around here did, there credits go right into a University program that they are associated with.
I really don't see a problem with requiring a BSN in 10 years. That still leaves all the paths in to nursing we currently have, and with the abundance of online RN-BSN programs, there's no need to be within driving distance of a school that offers a bridge program.
Quote from jeckrnYes, exactly. Nurses are *officers* in the military. They're brought in explicitly as professionals, in the same realm as doctors and lawyers.The military requires a BSN (execpt the Army Reserve) because you are an officer first which requires a 4 year degree.
Quote from jeckrnIf that's the case, I'm wondering why studies show better patient outcomes with BSN prepared nurses. If ADNs have the edge in clinical skills, I'd expect the studies to show better patient outcomes with ADN nurses.As far as clinical skills most ADN & BSN grads are the same with the ADN's having a slight edge.
0Sep 9, '09 by meluhnQuote from jeckrnAlot of the community colleges here in NJ are partnering with the state universities to make a 4 yr degree affordable and accessible. The state U will just set up shop at the local cc and people can go to the same campus and continue on for a bachelors. The cost/credit is a bit higher but still cheaper than most 4 yr schools. It has been a win-win situation for everyone, enrollment is currently at about 10,000 students at the one near me. Hopefully this trend will catch on.Coming from rural area where the closest BSN program is 1 1/2 drive away is only going to decrease the amount of nurse's avaliable in the future. Since the average age of new grads is in the 30's do you think the nurses who go to their local community college are going to travel 3+ hours to class 4-5 days aweek? Having all RN's get their BSN to start would be the ideal but it will not happen. Too much policital pull from the community colleges & rural hospitals who will not be able to get nurses from the cities to come work for them. Making BSN's within 10 years of getting your RN is very do able.
Can not agree about cost of getting an ADN then BSN being more then getting a BSN from the start. By going to a community college to get my ADN it cost my less then one semester at a 4 year state school getting my BSN. Many degree programs have you going to a community college for the first 2 years, where the cost is less, then transfering to a 4 year school for the last 2 years.
But, if you can only go to a private school then getting your BSN vs ADN-BSN properly does cost less.