Napa Valley nursing students draw crowd as they protest use of ATI exam - page 8

nvc nursing students draw crowd as they protest mandatory exam napa valley register - napa,ca,usa about 100 napa valley college nursing students filled the college board room thursday night in... Read More

  1. by   Sheri257
    Quote from nursemi
    First lets go on the ATI website and focus on the objective of the exam and see if faculty followed its criteria.

    Debates are soooo sensitive.
    First of all, I appreciate your post.

    Of course they probably didn't follow the criteria. This is where you probably misunderstood me. Like I said, I'm a pragmatist.

    But there are so many things that are unfair in nursing school ... what are you going to do? Make a big stink?

    Oh great ... so now you're known as the student who couldn't cut it in nursing school. And there's your picture in the paper for all to see.

    I'm not saying that but, look at the letters that were posted in the newspaper. That's what at least some of the readers think and you can bet there's a big risk of the hospitals thinking that also.

    One of the readers said they thought all nursing students should be "A" students, and they wouldn't want "B" students taking care of them. Obviously they have no clue, but is this what you want the public to think?

    What we sometimes tend to forget is while the teachers don't follow criteria in ways that hurt us, they also don't follow criteria in ways that also help us. It's just that nobody is going to complain about that.

    Even if they didn't follow the criteria, they did give us ample warning. There were ways to try to prepare. Was it ideal? Absolutely not. But sometimes you have to knuckle down and just deal with it.

    That's all I've been saying.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 6, '06
  2. by   Sheri257
    Quote from Jolie
    So the ATI study guide is the only responsible way to prepare for this test? I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
    Well ... yes. It's the equivalent of saying I'm going to ignore the textbook that my teachers have assigned and study something else.

    As I have pointed out in previous posts ... it's all different. If you study something else, even though it claims to be the same the material, it's really not. Nursing academia is not consistent by any means.

    Especially when you're dealing with intricate test questions where the right or wrong answer depends upon complex details. Every textbook and NCLEX guide author has a different opinion on the subject. Other than the absolute basics, they usually totally disagree on everything else.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 6, '06
  3. by   nursemi

    The Napa Valley students' attorneys' name is Michael Sorgen does any one know what kind of an attorney he is? I guess there is going to be a plan for a nation wide march. Has anyone heard if this is true. California and New York nurses alongside with a few physicians are implementing the march.
    I guess I have to try to find his number.
    If anyone has any info, let me know.

    Thanks
  4. by   West_Coast_Ken
    Quote from nursemi
    The Napa Valley students' attorneys' name is Michael Sorgen does any one know what kind of an attorney he is?
    I didn't have a clue in the world other than what was in the article I read so I did a simple google search. It really is easy to do. :wakeneo:

    This is what I used: Michael Sorgen attorney San Francisco

    And this is one of the very first hits: Attorney Bios

    This guy is a real heavy weight. Yikes, the School Board probably didn't know what hit them. hehe I'd hire this guy--FAST.

    Sounds like these students did their homework when they went looking for an attorney, too. Wow.

    "Michael S. Sorgen is a 1967 cum laude graduate of Harvard Law School and has a B.A. (magna cum laude) from Brown University. He is admitted to the bars of California, District of Columbia, and the U.S. Supreme Court."
  5. by   nursemi
    West Coast Ken;


    It was a subliminal message. Did you get it? Of course I knew. Its the only way some people would want to research it. Get it????
  6. by   Gromit
    Quote from pegasus12164
    Its kind of like in Az LPNs have to take another LPN board exam called the HESI-PN to be placed into an RN program.We were tested once, passed, been licensed and practicing. So why all this? Also I'm upset I have to take a NET exam. Nurse Entrance Exam. All it is, is math and reading. I took refresher courses first. Got a+. 4.0 and 4.5. But I can't score high enough on this exam to register for the Rn program.All the pre-recs I took: maintained 4.0 average. The NET has no medical questions on it at all. But yet, I'm an LPN for 22 years. Proffessional student for more than I care to admit: still waiting to get into a program. I've taken the test 4 times. Always missing one section by a point or two.
    Pegasus, LPN
    FRUSTRATED!!!!
    I understand your frustration, but I for one have no problems whatsoever with requiring an entrance exam. For one, as you noted, it didn't require medical questions, but it DID require math (and presumably english) -if you cannot do the math, you will have a difficult time working with the dosage problems that are entirely part of the uh, "nursing experience". Likewise, if you cannot pass the english problem -well, this should be a moot point. OUR entrance exam required very little medical knowledge (a passing knowledge of anatomy was about it) but did require basic Algebra, etc.
  7. by   Gromit
    Quote from lizz
    Even if these students "win" on the ATI, I seriously doubt this will benefit students overall. Believe me ... the faculty is not going to be happy about all of this and, I would be willing to bet money that they'll find ways to do what they want anyway.

    I wouldn't be surprized to hear a year from now that the teachers in this program will suddenly be enforcing rules that never were enforced before ... and it won't bode well for the students. Faculty has a lot of discretion and, when students create a hostile situation and big public stink like this ... they can use that discretion against you, easily.

    Students tend to forget that while teachers are sometimes unfair, they also give you a lot of breaks along the way. Those breaks can easily disappear when students create hostile and, even worse, publicly embarrassing situations for the faculty.

    I'll bet the faculty will just make the program tougher, and they'll be well within their rights when they do it. I actually feel really bad for the students who will follow because, they will probably pay the price for this.

    :typing
    I doubt you end up with a 'revenge' type environment. More likely, the program WILL be tougher, and thats a GOOD thing. If the program is tougher, it will help ensure a higher NCLEX passing percentage. The teachers will have to be able to teach a tougher class, or they will end up with an unacceptable failure rate -and it will make the school look bad (which will hurt 'em financially). After all, if you have a program that the students cannot pass, whats the incentive to go?
    I don't recall OUR school requiring any of these tests to get our degree (we did have an exit-exam as such, but nothing quite so structured as what I'm seeing here, and in truth, it was more a formality to keep the state happy than anything else -nobody failed it.)
  8. by   Gromit
    All in all, it does seem a bit counter-productive to make it increasingly harder for students to actually pass and become nurses -especially when nurses are in such short supply -oh, I'm not advocating giving a free-ride or lowering the bar and allowing incompetency, but lets give this a little more thought: If you keep making it harder, you will throttle back on an already deficient workforce. Nursing schools were only designed to teach the basics, and get the student prepared to enter the work field -hospitals internship and orientation programs are what actually get the newly graduated and minted nurse ready to actually perform the roll for which they have worked. THAT is where the 'real' training takes place. That is as it should be. Orientees get far more personal attention (1:1) and training under the (hopefully) watchfull eye of their preceptor, in the training of the skills (etc) they will need to work in the environment they've chosen -be it critical care (which usually, understandably, has longer orientation periods) or med-surg, psych, mother-baby, or whatever. When I stepped foot onto my floor (Adult ICU/Step-down) I went right into another series of classes that were given at the hospital -a more intensive course in EKG interpretation as well as learning the equipment and processes required for my floor -understanding the basics ventilators, various other pumps, learning to understand arterial lines, etc etc etc. THEN I got to start putting these things into practice with a preceptor. These things are way beyond the scope of the college (as it should be).
    In case someone missed it, we DO have a severe shortage of nurses. If the college programs are worth their salt, the graduates will pass the boards. If they aren't, then they shouldn't be punishing the students who will have effectively wasted 2 (or more) years of schooling. The students shouldn't be put into that position to begin with. If the program is good, they won't be. Slackers don't pass the RN program -those get weeded out fairly early (in my experience, anyway).
  9. by   Sheri257
    BTW ... this school doesn't have a great NCLEX pass rate. Maybe that's why they didn't allow people to retake the ATI like before. Maybe they are trying to weed out students and boost their NCLEX pass rate.

    Last year they did ok with 86 percent, which is in line with the state and national average.

    But, the year before that their NCLEX pass rate was only 69 percent.

    And, in the years before that .... their pass rate was 70 percent, 75 and 77 percent.

    So, maybe that's what's behind all of this. When the NCLEX pass rate starts falling a good 10-15 percent lower than the state and national average ... there's a problem.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 7, '06
  10. by   brakabop
    We have to take the ATI tests also, but it is mainly used to show each students where their weakness lie. The last ATI test we had covered all the areas of nursing. The instructors will use this information to determine where the class weaknesses are, and plan to include that material in the next semester, which will help us to be better prepared for the NCLEX. This makes sense to me, as it is helping the class and helps guide the instructors, but to withhold a student from taking the NCLEX because of this one test is terribly wrong.
  11. by   Sheri257
    Quote from Gromit
    I doubt you end up with a 'revenge' type environment. More likely, the program WILL be tougher, and thats a GOOD thing. If the program is tougher, it will help ensure a higher NCLEX passing percentage. The teachers will have to be able to teach a tougher class, or they will end up with an unacceptable failure rate -and it will make the school look bad (which will hurt 'em financially). After all, if you have a program that the students cannot pass, whats the incentive to go?
    Well ... there's good tough, and bad tough. This could easily turn into bad tough. Like not letting students tape lectures. Or kicking people out of the program if their clinical uniforms are wrinkled. Or, not letting you make up an exam or clinical if you're sick or if a family member dies.

    There are many programs with high failure rates that still have people waiting to get into them. It doesn't seem to be hurting them financially. The average nursing school wait list these days is two years.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 7, '06
  12. by   sunnyjohn
    BTW ... this school doesn't have a great NCLEX pass rate. Maybe that's why they didn't allow people to retake the ATI like before. Maybe they are trying to weed out students and boost their NCLEX pass rate.

    Last year they did ok with 86 percent, which is in line with the state and national average.

    But, the year before that their NCLEX pass rate was only 69 percent.

    And, in the years before that .... their pass rate was 70 percent, 75 and 77 percent.

    So, maybe that's what's behind all of this. When the NCLEX pass rate starts falling a good 10-15 percent lower than the state and national average ... there's a problem.

    :typing
    If their NCLEX rate is low, they should look at revamping their curriculum and improving teaching to raise it. Boost your teaching staff. Give them all the tools they need. Why wait until a student is at the end and there is nothing that can be done to make a change?

    Perhaps they should even consider changing their admission standards.

    With the number of students all over the country trying to get into a nursing program, it is a WASTE of resources to let a student get ALL THE WAY TO THE END and weed them out, (not to mention rather shady on the school's part.)

    To those stuck on waiting lists, its an insult.
    Last edit by sunnyjohn on Dec 7, '06
  13. by   Sheri257
    Quote from sunnyjohn
    If their NCLEX rate is low, they should look at revamping their curriculum and improving teaching to raise it. Boost your teaching staff. Give them all the tools they need. Why wait until a student is at the end and there is nothing that can be done to make a change?

    Perhaps they should even consider changing their admission standards.

    With the number of students all over the country trying to get into a nursing program, it is a WASTE of resources to let a student get ALL THE WAY TO THE END and weed them out, (not to mention rather shady on the school's part.)

    To those stuck on waiting lists, its an insult.
    I can't argue with that but, there may be factors they can't control.

    For one thing, there's no money to hire more teachers in the state budget. My school had to resort to getting money from local hospitals to be able to take more students in our program. And, even with that extra private money from the hospitals, they still didn't have enough funds to hire more teachers ... just more clinical instructors.

    And, maybe they're stuck with a bunch of teachers who aren't very good, but have tenure and can't be fired. Even if they could fire them, it's also very difficult to hire more teachers when the pay isn't very good ... especially when there aren't that many masters prepared nurses out there to begin with.

    As far as admission standards .... my school tried to raise the minimum GPA requirements for admission but, the state board changed the criteria in a way that made it very difficult for them to do that. So, they're still stuck with the lottery system.

    With all of these factors ... maybe that's why they have to try to weed the students out after the fact.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 7, '06

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