Napa Valley nursing students draw crowd as they protest use of ATI exam - page 14

nvc nursing students draw crowd as they protest mandatory exam napa valley register - napa,ca,usa about 100 napa valley college nursing students filled the college board room thursday night in... Read More

  1. by   nursemi
    I was referring to the BSN test takers of ATI and HESI.

    "NCLEX examinatioin is an entry to practice exam, focused on hospital nursing, and that most baccalaureate programs teach beyond that scope of practice." "Students learn to think conceptually and may not be as prepared for a test that asks primarily practice questions." (2001, Bower RN Phd)

    Anyway, NLNAC looks at:
    -selection & admission process
    -academic
    -retention
    -withdrawal/dimissal
    -graduaton requirements
    -course outcomes and learning activities to achieve objectives/outcomes
    -course syllabi.. documents course content & learning experiences appropriate for the development of competencies required for graduation & delineates instructional methods used to develop competencies
    -to provide regular feedback to students & faculty with a timelly indicators fo student progress and academic standing are [B]consitently[/B applied and written and available to students.

    Now the question is: was this NLNAC accrediated? Obviously not, if so they won't have it long.

    For all those who are interested in a nursing program, make sure they are already NLNAC accredited. Makes a big difference.
    Lesson learned.

    I was told by an administrator at a university hospital, that they do look at this upon your hospital interview.
    He is also mandating that his nurses take CCNE. Should I suggest that if any of his nurses don't pass any of these exams that he should take their license away??? Or should he look into why?

    Scope:

    HESI, ATI, CCNE are all systematic program evaluation. = evaluation of strengths and weakness = benchmark for progression and remediation.
    :spin:
  2. by   sunnyjohn
    If they want to improve their NCLEX pass rate, Napa should spend its time and money on revamping its curriculum and not on 'gardening tools'.

    Leting a student get to the end of a program and THEN failing them while HUNDREDS sit on a waiting list???
    ..... waste of resources.
  3. by   nursemi
    Only a few thought slavery was wrong, but it wasn't until the few got mad and spoke up.

    Well you know the rest is History
  4. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from nursemi
    Yes, CardiacRN

    Someone held your hands during orientation.
    If you needed help you had to ask for it. Did you get the help?????????

    Who taught you how to draw blood, ABGs', suction, chest tubes, and CBIs?

    Yourself?

    How many times did you have to do above procedures before you were comfortable with it.

    Once?

    These students need help, not punishment. As nurses we will always need help

    Never call patients wolves they are patients. I don't advocate the word client either, but I would rather use that, than wolves.

    Asking for help, and having you "hand held" are two completely different things. I would think that was obvious, but I guess not.

    I learned how to interpret ABGs in A&P, and I learned how to draw blood, IVs, chest tubes and other assorted skills as a tech. I feel very comfortable in those skills. Being shown how to do something in my orientation period is not having my hand held. And asking someone if I did the right thing, or what they would have done is also not having my hand held.


    And when I say I was thrown to the wolves, I meant it. I don't need someone who hasn't worked as a RN to tell me what to NEVER say or do concerning patients. To take my statement and turn it into some attack on pts is very naive on your part.

    Wise up.
  5. by   cardiacRN2006
    Quote from nursemi
    Only a few thought slavery was wrong, but it wasn't until the few got mad and spoke up.

    Well you know the rest is History
    So wait....you're equating slavery with the inability to pass a test???? Are you kidding?
  6. by   sunnyjohn
    Quote from nursemi
    Only a few thought slavery was wrong, but it wasn't until the few got mad and spoke up.

    Well you know the rest is History
    Well I'm going to say it before anyone else does.

    I don't agree with Napa Valley's use of the ATI. It does seem shady to take a student's money for all those semesters and THEN drop them.

    Still, I DON'T think a nursing student failing out in the last semester is akin to the wrongs of slavery.

    Nope.
  7. by   nursemi
    Sometimes we need to come out of the box.

    I don't have to be an RN to tell you that patients should not be called wolves.

    I have been a nurse longer than you have therefore I do have the right to make you aware that patients are not called wolves. Just because you are an RN makes you better than me????

    My slavery quote came about because I wanted to let you know that because there are only two students in the law suit does not mean that they are in the wrong with their law suit. It never has to be a big group in order to accomplish something that you truly believe in your heart is wrong.

    If I was a patient, I too would not like the idea of you calling me a wolf or any other patient for that matter. Its very unprofessional.

    It is obvious we have a different definition of the term of "holding hand"
    My understanding of it is.... guidance, support, teaching. You know when you go to church on sunday morning and the priest say "now lets hold hands together and pray....

    Whats your definition of it??


    By the way don't draw your status on me. It means nothing to anyone but you. Stay humble my dear.
  8. by   celeste7767
    Back when I was a senior in nursing at Indiana Univ. we all had to take something like the NLN (National League for Nursing) Test that was supposed to be similar to the State Boards which in 1975 were not NCLEX but 5 separate tests taken over 2 consecutive days. But the NLN test was strictly at teaching tool for the student to learn where their weaknesses or deficiencies were so they could "bone up" on those areas prior to taking the Boards. I am appalled that ANY school COULD or WOULD deny the students their EARNED degree because they flunked a test that was not developed by the school but by an independent testing organization. We all know of someone who got their nursing degree but was unable to pass the boards; but if they passed the courses for an ASN, AAD, or even BSN they deserve to get the sheepskin that goes along with it. I STILL CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THE NAPA VALLEY SCHOOL CAN GET AWAY WITH WHAT THEY ARE DOING; IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THEY WANT TO KEEP UP THEIR STATS AS FAR AS HOW MANY OF THEIR NURSING GRADS PASS THE STATE BOARDS AND THEY THINK THEY HAVE FOUND A WAY TO DO IT. It still doesn't mean what they are doing is right. Those students have student loans to pay back, and maybe they won't pass the boards but they could still use their degree to go on and perhaps get a BS in a different field.:angryfire
  9. by   nursemi
    Quote from celeste7767
    Back when I was a senior in nursing at Indiana Univ. we all had to take something like the NLN (National League for Nursing) Test that was supposed to be similar to the State Boards which in 1975 were not NCLEX but 5 separate tests taken over 2 consecutive days. But the NLN test was strictly at teaching tool for the student to learn where their weaknesses or deficiencies were so they could "bone up" on those areas prior to taking the Boards. I am appalled that ANY school COULD or WOULD deny the students their EARNED degree because they flunked a test that was not developed by the school but by an independent testing organization. We all know of someone who got their nursing degree but was unable to pass the boards; but if they passed the courses for an ASN, AAD, or even BSN they deserve to get the sheepskin that goes along with it. I STILL CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THE NAPA VALLEY SCHOOL CAN GET AWAY WITH WHAT THEY ARE DOING; IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THEY WANT TO KEEP UP THEIR STATS AS FAR AS HOW MANY OF THEIR NURSING GRADS PASS THE STATE BOARDS AND THEY THINK THEY HAVE FOUND A WAY TO DO IT. It still doesn't mean what they are doing is right. Those students have student loans to pay back, and maybe they won't pass the boards but they could still use their degree to go on and perhaps get a BS in a different field.:angryfire

    Appalling is too easy of a word for this issue. We took some of the NLN exams after each nursing course. We didn't know what our scores were. The instructors never told us, obviously we never reviewed our areas of weakness or strengths.

    Its true, you complete the whole program. Your last semester grades were all passing. We walked on stage with our caps, gowns, families there.
    This HESI was never stated in our curriculum, handbook, or catalog either especially the consequences of failing it.

    All throughout the curriculum our passing was 78% or higher. With HESI they expect us at over 90%.

    We understand the purpose of the exam, but we do not understand why we are the only ones being held accountable. Why wait to test us at the end, is my question. Out of all the exams we took for the past three years, why is it that this one is the only one that counts? Shouldn't we have been told our areas of weakness from the beginning, middle, than end?


    Pure deception. The schools want to pass on their failure to teach, onto the students. What a shame. Passing the buck. :roll

    No one argues about the exam itself. Students want to learn. We want to take the exam, but it must be used for what is what was intended to used for.

    Yes, I remember when nursing students were taking the NLN exams. Its the same purpose as the ATI and HESI. NLN is more broader type of questioning. It is more like the NCLEX RN exam. I have asked numerous RNs' who passed HESI and NCLEX RN, 100% said no way are the two the same.

    There were several of my classmates who did pass HESI but did not pass NCLEX exam on the first time. So much for that probability.

    I understand your anger, and is much justified. Most nurses who have practiced more than five years tend to agree to the injustice of misuse of these exams.

    That is why people should write to the Board of Nursing. Competency should not be judged by how many times you took a test.

    Like I said before, I know many excellent nurses who took the NCLEX exam more than once, or twice, even three times. 90% of them are now working at the university hospital trauma unit. One nurse passed after the second time, she is now a CNS nurse. I know first hand, that none of these nurses are incompetent.

    I am sure there are physicians, attorneys out there who did not pass the exams for the first, second, or third time. My neighbor is a promnient judge now. He will admit it took him four times to pass his Bar Exam.

    According to the NRC their are numerous ingredients that must be taken accountable when taking exams.
  10. by   awilhelm
    I honestly did not read the 18 pages of complaining that followed this post. I am not saying that I agree with the Napa Valley School's use of ATI, but it is not as bad as it seems. These students had to score in the 50 percentile to graduate. This does not mean that the student has to score a higher score than half of the people that take the test. In statistics (which is what tests such as ATI use) percentiles are complex math problems. Being in the 50 percentile means that scored what most students did. Percentiles are based on a bell curve. Lets say that 100 students took a test. In percentiles, and based on a bell curve, we could approximate 5 students scoring in the top and bottom percentiles, 90% and 10%. These are not scores, remind you, but percentiles. A score of 50% would likely be in the 10 percentile on an average test. 8 students would both be in the 20 and 80 percentile. 10 students in both the 30 and 70 percentiles. 12 students in both the 40 and 60 percentiles. This leaves 30 students in the 50 percentile.
    This is an oversimplification of the way percentiles are used. Personally, I had to take the ATI tests and they were not that hard. The NCLEX was more challenging. I personally think that it is a bad move to use a standardized test to qualify for graduation, but it is not as bad as this post makes it seem.
    I, however, am certain that this school took up this policy to boost the success rate on licensure for nurses. This is not a good idea, in that is would potentially stop a few good people from actually becoming nurses.
    In the school's defense, i must say that since only two people in the class did not score in or above the 50 percentile. they are doing something right.
  11. by   pickledpepperRN
    From the article in the original post:

    In order for an NVC student to earn an associate degree in nursing, she must achieve a score within the 50th percentile nationally on the ATI -- meaning she must perform as well as or better than half of those who take the test across the country.

    Napa Valley Register Online | Local Top StoryNews
    definitions:
    percentile - definition of percentile by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
    percentile: Definition and Much More from Answers.com
    percentile- WordWeb dictionary definition
    Glossary definition for Percentile
    Toward clarification of confusion in the concept of percentile Education - Find Articles
  12. by   nursemi
    Quote from awilhelm
    I honestly did not read the 18 pages of complaining that followed this post. I am not saying that I agree with the Napa Valley School's use of ATI, but it is not as bad as it seems. These students had to score in the 50 percentile to graduate. This does not mean that the student has to score a higher score than half of the people that take the test. In statistics (which is what tests such as ATI use) percentiles are complex math problems. Being in the 50 percentile means that scored what most students did. Percentiles are based on a bell curve. Lets say that 100 students took a test. In percentiles, and based on a bell curve, we could approximate 5 students scoring in the top and bottom percentiles, 90% and 10%. These are not scores, remind you, but percentiles.
    Personally, I had to take the ATI tests and they were not that hard. The NCLEX was more challenging. I personally think that it is a bad move to use a standardized test to qualify for graduation, but it is not as bad as this post makes it seem.
    I, however, am certain that this school took up this policy to boost the success rate on licensure for nurses. This is not a good idea, in that is would potentially stop a few good people from actually becoming nurses.

    In the school's defense, i must say that since only two people in the class did not score in or above the 50 percentile. they are doing something right.


    The 50% percentile is graded nationally - United States. Out of the nursing students who took the same exact test in the United States. Not in their class. We know this could be 10,000 or 100,000 thousand students who took the exact same test volume.

    However, like others have been saying along. The school knew they had a problem with students not passing NCLEX for the first time. Instead of pointing the fingers at themselves and its curriculum to fix it. They went the easy way out. Blame the students. We passed the students for the last two years of their nursing, but its their fault they can't pass a practice exam. An exam the instructors have no idea what its content consist of.

    I am glad to hear that you thought ATI was easy. That means your instructors were able to examine ATI's content and integrate it with your curriculum. I like to hear that some teachers actually like to teach.
  13. by   Sheri257
    Quote from nursemi
    I think you guys who are against the lawsuit, are forgetting the true validity of the law suit.

    Remember: Their lawyer presented to them evidence that no where is their exam stated in the curriculum, syllabus, and school catolog. Most of all the admission criteria.

    These are legal documents.

    As nurses, you must understand the importance of documentation. Correct.
    You're jumping to conclusions here without much evidence or documentation, for that matter:

    1) There is no lawsuit, only a threatened lawsuit.

    2) There is no evidence of documentation, only hearsay which would not stand up in the court of law.

    People can make all sorts of claims in the press but, that does not mean it's true, nor does it mean they have a good legal case.

    These students have only hired an attorney and threatened to file a lawsuit. People threaten to file lawsuits all the time but, that doesn't mean anything until they actually file paperwork with the court.

    We don't even know if they've prevailed with their negotiations with the school administration at this point.

    All we do know is that one of the students (not the lawyer) claimed in the newspaper that she spoke with a representative at the state Chancellor of Community Colleges' office, who allegedly said that the ATI is not on the list of approved assessment tools.

    There is no mention of actual documentation verifying this claim, just a phone conversation which, for all we know, could have been with a secretary who didn't know what she was talking about.

    I can tell you that the ATI has been listed in every syllabus of my California community college nursing program for the last four semesters that I've been in school. For that reason alone, it would seem really odd to me that the ATI would not be an approved assessment tool.

    My personal opinion is that if this case did go to court, the students would probably lose. Generally, California courts have ruled in favor of toughening standards for nursing programs and I really don't think it would be any different in this case.

    As the college president told the newspaper:

    “State law gives faculty the right to establish grading standards ... and use them in concert with local health care requirements and the mandates of the accrediting agencies."

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 14, '06

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