Napa Valley nursing students draw crowd as they protest use of ATI exam - page 12

nvc nursing students draw crowd as they protest mandatory exam napa valley register - napa,ca,usa about 100 napa valley college nursing students filled the college board room thursday night in... Read More

  1. by   Sheri257
    Quote from nursemi
    I understand that the colleges need their accrediation based on first time test takers, but state board also looks are graduation rates.
    Not to my knowledge. There are plenty of schools that have high failure rates. As far as I know, it's never been an issue with the board.

    Quote from nursemi
    Remember, there are hundreds of thousands of nurses before us who did not take these exit exams, and are considered quite competent. Remember: When you get your license , you will be working with them. Would it scare you that they did not have the standarized exam?
    It's not the same thing. A lot of those nurses didn't need to take these exit exams because their NCLEX pass rates were a lot higher than they are today.

    Remember: the nationwide NCLEX pass rate used to be 90 percent. But then the pass rate dropped substantially to 83 percent.

    That's why they started using these exit exams ... to improve NCLEX pass rates, and it did.

    Today, the nationwide NCLEX pass rate is 86-87 percent although, it's still not what it used to be.

    You have to keep in mind that NONE of this would have happened if NCLEX pass rates hadn't dropped as much as they did.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 10, '06
  2. by   ewattsjt
    maybe i read it wrong by the way the posts keep going. the posts keep going back to the nclex itself. i don't think that was the issue.

    i thought that they did pass the nclex. the problem is that the school's standard is to be within the top 50% of those who passed. what it boils down to is they passed, they passed, they passed, they passed, but on the exit test although passed (within the 86-87 or whatever %), it was not the schools standard. they passed by the national standards. didn’t they?

    whether the school says or not, what they imply is that it does not matter if you pass the test. it is a matter of where you are in the passing. the idea the school suggests is anyone who scores within the lower 50% of the nclex should not practice nursing. where did you score? top half or bottom half?
  3. by   Sheri257
    Quote from ewattsjt
    Maybe I read it wrong by the way the posts keep going. The posts keep going back to the NCLEX itself. I don't think that was the issue

    I thought that they did pass the NCLEX. The problem is that the school's standard is to be within the top 50% of those who passed. What it boils down to is they passed, they passed, they passed, they passed, but on the exit test although passed (within the 86-87 or whatever %), it was not the schools standard. They passed by the national standards. Didn’t they?
    Actually, I think NCLEX pass rates were the main issue in this case. Just a year ago this school's NCLEX pass rate was less than 70 percent and, the year before that their pass rate was only 70 percent.

    Once a school's pass rate falls below 70 percent, their board accreditation is in danger.

    So, like it or not, they may have had to force students to score in the 50 percentile or better on the exit exams to boost their NCLEX pass rates and keep their accreditation.

    Because these exit exams do improve NCLEX pass rates, usually anywhere from 9-41 percent.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 10, '06
  4. by   Gromit
    Quote from lizz
    Not to my knowledge. There are plenty of schools that have high failure rates. As far as I know, it's never been an issue with the board.



    It's not the same thing. A lot of those nurses didn't need to take these exit exams because their NCLEX pass rates were a lot higher than they are today.

    Remember: the nationwide NCLEX pass rate used to be 90 percent. But then the pass rate dropped substantially to 83 percent.

    That's why they started using these exit exams ... to improve NCLEX pass rates, and it did.

    Today, the nationwide NCLEX pass rate is 86-87 percent although, it's still not what it used to be.

    You have to keep in mind that NONE of this would have happened if NCLEX pass rates hadn't dropped as much as they did.

    :typing
    Liz, thats not really a very fair evaluation OR statement. Ok, on one hand, yes its true that NCLEX pass rates have fallen a bit over the years -but it is ALSO true (at least in my state, and I believe we are not alone) that the accepted passing level (degree of difficulty required to 'pass' ) has gone UP, not down. I know for a fact that Floridas' has increased in difficulty -our board of nursing admitted it (hell, they ADVERTISED it). So it SHOULD stand to reason that if you make a test harder, it is going to incur a higher fail-rate. Either that, or more are going to wash-out during the curriculum.
    In any case, graduating nurses are required to have a higher degree of knowledge compared to nurses who graduated a decade or two before them.
    My grandmother (also an RN) would be completely amazed at what we have to tackle to graduate now, compared to what she did back then. Of course, what nurses do now is far removed from what they were allowed to do then, as well. I can easily justify my statements because I HAVE her text books on my bookshelf (grin. She passed away when I was only three weeks into the first semester of my RN program. I carried her name badge during the graduation ceremony as a tribute to her. )
  5. by   Sheri257
    Quote from Gromit
    Liz, thats not really a very fair evaluation OR statement. Ok, on one hand, yes its true that NCLEX pass rates have fallen a bit over the years -but it is ALSO true (at least in my state, and I believe we are not alone) that the accepted passing level (degree of difficulty required to 'pass' ) has gone UP, not down. I know for a fact that Floridas' has increased in difficulty -our board of nursing admitted it (hell, they ADVERTISED it). So it SHOULD stand to reason that if you make a test harder, it is going to incur a higher fail-rate. Either that, or more are going to wash-out during the curriculum.
    In any case, graduating nurses are required to have a higher degree of knowledge compared to nurses who graduated a decade or two before them.
    My grandmother (also an RN) would be completely amazed at what we have to tackle to graduate now, compared to what she did back then. Of course, what nurses do now is far removed from what they were allowed to do then, as well. I can easily justify my statements because I HAVE her text books on my bookshelf (grin. She passed away when I was only three weeks into the first semester of my RN program. I carried her name badge during the graduation ceremony as a tribute to her. )
    All of this is probably true but, it doesn't change the fact that most schools live and die by NCLEX pass rates. It is, for better or worse, how nursing programs are graded on their performance.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Dec 10, '06
  6. by   RN34TX
    Quote from Gromit
    So it SHOULD stand to reason that if you make a test harder, it is going to incur a higher fail-rate. Either that, or more are going to wash-out during the curriculum.
    Yes, that would be true if you made the exam harder, yet the school curriculum remained the same.

    But the school curriculum should update and keep up with the times and up to speed with the most current NCLEX.

    One thing I want everyone here to keep in mind is that many years ago state board exam actual performance scores were released and employers used the actual scores as a screening tool for hiring nurses.

    A nurse may have passed the exam and obtained an RN license, yet may not have scored high enough to work at certain hospitals who only hired nurses who obtained a certain score or higher.

    This is why you will never know your true "score" on your NCLEX today. You will simply get a pass or fail.
    The scores were used and abused by many over the years.

    This is partly why I am skeptical of being supportive of such standardized exams.

    Nursing is constantly looking for new ways to filter out the incompetent, be it standardized HESI type exams or what have you, yet the dullest knife in the drawer somehow slips through the cracks and continues to graduate from nursing school and get licensed.

    We all work with them everyday and we all went to school with them.

    Be it more clinical requirements or more standardized exams, they are still getting in.
  7. by   Gromit
    Can't argue with that. On any count. I know they used to abuse the knowledge -though I didn't know why the results (beyond pass/fail) weren't given -it makes sense now, though.
    And yes, I'm sure we've all worked with folks that made us kind of wonder if their parents had dropped 'em on the head a few times... I can't speak for other courses, but I feel that if they made it through OUR program, they were at least worth giving a chance. The first two semesters were pretty good at weeding out those that shouldn't be anywhere near areas where they could affect patients (grin).
  8. by   stardust_mage
    I just want to say that the day before Thanksgiving break, the nursing department at my school had us take 5 ATI tests: med-surg, maternal-newborn, psych, peds, and community. We were given the med-surg book to read over the summer, and we were repeating the maternal-newborn from last spring. We got the other 3 books this semester. That's about 5 hours of testing there, at least. Oh, and to pass, we had to get in the 60th percentile.
  9. by   nursemi



    That is why I am a firm believer of "weeding out the weaker students" upon entering the nursing program.

    High standards should of been imposed from the get go.

    Why impose it at the end of the year, is truly the question. In other words, they believe in providing high standard education at the end, and not at the beginning or through out?

    Remember: Blaming goes way. It takes two to make a marriage, it takes two to break it.

    No one argues the "purpose" of the exams. The colleges' punitive usage is the argument, and lack of proper documentation.

    Remember: The purpose of these exams are to identify the areas of weakness for both the student and faculty. To strenghten the student, faculty, and its curriculum.

    If a student is unsuccessful, that also means the faculty and its curriculum is unsuccessful. It goes both way. You just cannot blame the student or the faculty.

    Remember: How many exams have you taken in the first year of school?
    How about the second year? Then suddenly, one exam, tells you that you are not competent??? :angryfire

    That leads to my next question. :angryfire
    What kind of exams were the instructors giving you all these years????

    Did they give us these exams for fun?

    Did they give us these exams to determine our level of competency? :uhoh21:

    Autocratic beliefs does not work well in the field of nursing.

    Their are alot of hospitals out there who are mandating that their registered nurses take a continnuing education exams. if one fails it, does that mean she is incompetent and should have her license taken away??? Do you have the right to fight it? Will you call them a whiner too?

    My suggestion?

    Look at the mistakes made by both parties... admit to it.... and work together as a team (as nurses should) to make the test work for its rightful purpose.

  10. by   m.watson
    Quote from KellieNurse06
    We were just talking about the most respected professions at one of our lectures last week....we were asked what the most respected profession is at the moment..and nurses were one of them...I think the instructor said nurses are on the top of the list of most respected people/professions........can't remember exact wording verbatim but noone in the class said anything when we were asked, and it's because no one thought it would be nurses...... anyway........ can't we all just get along????:spin: everyone is entitled to their opinion.....
    My prof told us that nurses have ruled the top of the "most trusted" list for years, with the exception of 2001 when firefighters were #1. With this I think we have some pretty big shoes to fill!
  11. by   nursemi



    I just read some of the comments posted on NVC. Some good points were made.

    The questionable facts are:

    Why would any student not want to study for the ATI exams, when they have to pay over $300.00 for each exam???

    Why is it that mostly RNs' are supporting the NVC students?

    Why would an LPN of 12 years, who bridged over to the RN program not pass one of these exams?

    Why is it that most of the ATI/HESI questions are not covered in the nursing curriculum?

    Can anyone answer???
  12. by   nursemi



    I just read some of the comments posted on NVC. Some good points were made.

    The questionable facts are:

    Why would any student not want to study for the ATI exams, when they have to pay over $300.00 for each exam???

    Why is it that mostly RNs' are supporting the NVC students?

    Why would an LPN of 12 years, who bridged over to the RN program not pass one of these exams?

    Why is it that most of the ATI/HESI questions are not covered in the nursing curriculum?

    Whats up with the instructors and administrators? They don't want to fully implement their true scope of the field?
    Help the students with their areas of weakness.
    Nurisng is about preventive care, teaching, mentoring, compassionate, most of all Teaching.

    If I had a new grad RN on my unit with a question about a procedure, should I show her the right way or should I ignore her and walk away?

    Why are the nursing instructors walking away from teaching their students of two or three years? If a student fails, they walk away? They have not finished their jobs yet.

    So much for the motto not to leave a student behind.

    Can anyone answer???
  13. by   SillyLilly
    Quote from Jolie
    They require this test not as a benefit to their students, but as a means of protecting their own pass rates. .
    This is what its 90% about. My school calls me every month to see how I am doing-if I passed nclex, if I got a job, if I got a raise, etc etc etc to document as part of their success rates... Its all about their reputation.

    We took the HESI. I passed, and did fine on the NCLEX.

    Quite a few-more than the past years- students from my class did not pass. They got a second chance. Some did not even pass that.

    I am a good test taker-some people are not. Also, the HESI is in a DIFFERENT STYLE than the NCLEX. HESI is harder too-in my opinion.

    I know students from my class have talked about a Law suit over the HESI.

    If frustration with these tests continues, I see more of this happening across the country.

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