Is it moral for nursing schools to keep taking tuition if they canít place their - page 5

by chuckster

8,228 Views | 53 Comments

The question was from The Ethicist column in this Sundayís New York Times (found at . As you will see in the column (below), the question addressed law school, however, it is an equally valid question for nursing schools.... Read More


  1. 1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    If every college, university, professional school and so forth shut down everytime there was downturn in graduates finding employment there wouldn't be many left. ...

    *Last edit by Esme12 on 6:41 am : Reason: TOS/profanity*

    Pardon, I did not mean to do it.
    Esme12 likes this.
  2. 0
    Quote from samadams8


    True. But people have to look at nursing along with the bigger picture of healthcare--what it is today. It's changed enormously since the 70's. What will not change is the fact that in order to reduce costs, a huge bulk of care, diagnostics, and treatment functions have moved OUT OF THE HOSPITAL.

    We are seriously getting out of topic here. But anyways I agree partially with you and for the moment that is what really seems to be happening in health care however these changes have not been brought up by a skilled and organized effort, instead they are part of a temporary crisis.

    Let's not forget that the nursing shortage ended in only two months as nurses looking for work showed up in droves from every corner of the country and even out of the country. This extra help which now gives hospitals this great advantage could also end in two months if the decide to leave and why would they leave? Simple, the economy will turn around sooner or later and so many nurses will leave the profession because they didn't want to be working to begin with and on top of that the working conditions now are deplorable and abusive. They will leave the first they have. Even though hospitals and hiring managers have the upper hand now this situation could very easily revert back to what it was or worse they could find themselves in a severe disadvantage.

    The fundamentals haven't change. We still have enormousness populations needing health care and we are around the corner from Obama care. At the end of the day is all about jobs and the economy. I think there will be a amazing rebound in the economy and this will severely affect the way things are in hospitals across the US.
  3. 0
    Quote from GrnTea
    See, this is why I don't understand why somebody said part of your due diligence was to ask your prospective school how many of their grads were employed. How the heck would they know? It's not their job to know that, and they don't know that. It's not like the new grads-- or the old ones-- check in every year and tell them. They don't.
    Actually many Universities (especially particular graduate programs like Law) DO track student employment because it's actually a big deal to many prospective students, and gives credence to the school. Some colleges & universities not only track the % of graduates employed immediately after graduation, but also the % employed prior to graduating, and 6 months after graduating. Those that weren't working get separated into categories too! ... e.g. % of people unemployed by choice, or unemployed because they sought to continue their education or clerkship, etc.

    ... You also get the % of students that were employed in private vs. public firms.

    Again- this type of thing is common w/in some facets of education, but totally foreign to most students who have never applied to law school, etc.

    Law is a great example because the school can matter a lot: Graduate from University of North Dakota and you're options are for more limited compared to a student graduating University of Virginia... the median starting pay (also included in a lot of stats) is very different as well (as one might expect.)

    The statistical information is given by the graduates, and there are several web sites where people even list their nursing, PA, etc., income at their respective places of employment which gives many people coming into the profession a (better) snap shot of reality.

    So yes, due diligence is in order all the way around. Depending on what you want to do with your life and education, there are many factors to consider: The **RIGOR** of your program, the ranking of the program, employment data, accreditation (can make or break you if you want a PhD or DN), etc...

    Everyone should do their homework. Schools aren't responsible for hand-holding and 'nursing' their students (no pun).
  4. 1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Pardon, I did not mean to do it.
    De Nada!

    I think that schools need to stop perpetuating the "Nursing Shortage" Urban Legend (although it will return) They continue to tell students that the world is their oyster.....name your job, shift and specialty.

    These unaccredited school that price gouge and charge phenomenal amounts for tuition have poor passing NCLEX should be held accountable. I have heard of programs is CA upwards of $130,000 for a BSN or $70,000 for a ADN they have bare minimum curriculum.

    I know the school I attended still has a placement service and publish their graduate placement rates along with NCLEX pass rates....which are the top in the state due to the reputation and quality of it's graduates.

    So I do not think these schools who have popped up to "address the shortage" have any morals. They have poor programs with sad curriculum that don't allow their grads to qualify for endorsement in all states and in some instances do not even allow them to sit for boards......

    They have no morals.
    Last edit by Esme12 on Dec 5, '12
    nursel56 likes this.
  5. 1
    Tuition pays for an education. Nursing schools should have to inform students how many of their graduates pass the nursing boards on the first pass. That would equal educated. Beyond that it is up to the individual student or graduate. Schools can do little to predict how easy or hard a student will have getting a job in 4 or 10 years. Who can predict the future? Who can even predict whether the graduate will like the field they graduated in?
    nursel56 likes this.
  6. 0
    Quote from Esme12
    De Nada!

    I think that schools need to stop perpetuating the "Nursing Shortage" Urban Legend (although it will return) They continue to tell students that the world is their oyster.....name your job, shift and specialty.

    These unaccredited school that price gouge and charge phenomenal amounts for tuition have poor passing NCLEX should be held accountable. I have heard of programs is CA upwards of $130,000 for a BSN or $70,000 for a ADN they have bare minimum curriculum.

    I know the school I attended still has a placement service and publish their graduate placement rates along with NCLEX pass rates....which are the top in the state due to the reputation and quality of it's graduates.

    So I do not think these schools who have popped up to "address the shortage" have any morals. They have poor programs with sad curriculum that don't allow their grads to qualify for endorsement in all states and in some instances do not even allow them to sit for boards......

    They have no morals.
    Nursing programs aren't alone in promoting the "nursing shortage", the media, federal/local governments and to some extent some in the profession are all guilty as well.

    Late as yesterday Yahoo.com was again promoting becoming a RN as one of the "hottest" and well paid careers of the coming years, and yes there will be a shortage of them as well.

    For every staff nurse who warns anyone who listens to run fast and far you have academia and others well placed in the profession saying otherwise.

    Again hospitals and such aren't affected at once by a gult of new nurses, but nursing programs and those who run and or are employed by them have much to fear from a large downturn in enrollments. I mean it's not like scores of nursing professors and other education staff are going to go running back to the bedside full time.
  7. 0
    Quote from marcos9999
    We are seriously getting out of topic here. But anyways I agree partially with you and for the moment that is what really seems to be happening in health care however these changes have not been brought up by a skilled and organized effort, instead they are part of a temporary crisis.

    Let's not forget that the nursing shortage ended in only two months as nurses looking for work showed up in droves from every corner of the country and even out of the country. This extra help which now gives hospitals this great advantage could also end in two months if the decide to leave and why would they leave? Simple, the economy will turn around sooner or later and so many nurses will leave the profession because they didn't want to be working to begin with and on top of that the working conditions now are deplorable and abusive. They will leave the first they have. Even though hospitals and hiring managers have the upper hand now this situation could very easily revert back to what it was or worse they could find themselves in a severe disadvantage.

    The fundamentals haven't change. We still have enormousness populations needing health care and we are around the corner from Obama care. At the end of the day is all about jobs and the economy. I think there will be a amazing rebound in the economy and this will severely affect the way things are in hospitals across the US.
    Sorry for going tangential. I guess I felt like there was really nothing more to say on that. What I mean is that, as stated, it seems silly to put it on the schools if nurses don't find jobs. I mean they have a part--as they keep openning programs, when things are nothing at all like they were. And it isn't right that this theme of job security and this fairytale of nursing shortage continues to be perpetuated by them so that they can get students. At the least, they should tell students that most of the jobs will be in long-term care, rehab, other areas outside the hospital--and that they would be fortunate to land a med-surg position if they do get into a hospital.

    Yea, sure. There will be ups and downs with the economy, but I'm not sure anymore what I long-term recovery will be--I think we have lost our strength economically--and, short of something absolutely phenomenal, we aren't going to get it back. Sorry. That's the price we will pay for massively expanded government. I don't see any way around it--especially given our ginormous debt load and dying ability to stimulate revenue.

    Regardless. One thing seems clear. There isn't the need for for nurses like there was > 20 years ago, and a big piece of that is due to decreased hospitals stays and so much going to outpatient services. That's an inevitable function of healthcare costs and expenses--and limiting reimbursement.

    Obviously more than one factor is responsible, but the former is such a big part in my thinking. I really can't see it going back to the way it was, and really, neither can most anyone else. Healthcare is just too outrageously expensive.

    I think, at the very least, nursing school professors should be telling nurses about the level of difficulty in getting a job in many, if not most areas of the US, and the students need to put their dreams of specialization on a back burner, for the most part anyway. It's only realistic, and it's only fair. Yes, some will get those positions, if they are competitive enough to get into a nurse residency program, but MOST won't. Can't fit 100lbs in a 2 lb sack.

    Someone needs to report the reality of what is going on. I have spoken to plenty of nurse graduates from universities as well as two year programs, and there is still the issue for most of them of some level of debt and a whole lot of disappointment. They thought they could choose the area of nursing. Well, no. Not most of the time anymore. Not if they need a paycheck.


    There should be some kind of central data bank for the stats of new graduates and the percentage that do not have jobs after being out of a school, say, for a year or more. Also, it would be great to breakdown other specifics. People could report when and where they were hired with their license information--if they don't already. (My two RN state licenses require this on license renewal--at least area and whether FT or PT.)

    Nursing organizations need to put as much of this information as possible together for working nurses, non-working nurses, and nursing students. It's downright unfair to these students. More than a couple of new grads have told me they are over $60,000 in student loan debt. There are also a lot of LPNs that were considering going back to school, but they don't see the point in taking on the debt load. They already have an in to positions for LTC.
  8. 0
    Quote from rita359
    Tuition pays for an education. Nursing schools should have to inform students how many of their graduates pass the nursing boards on the first pass. That would equal educated. Beyond that it is up to the individual student or graduate. Schools can do little to predict how easy or hard a student will have getting a job in 4 or 10 years. Who can predict the future? Who can even predict whether the graduate will like the field they graduated in?

    Well they do post their board passing rates. I don't know what you mean by "equal educated."
    Yes, it is up to the individual student. What I think others are saying here is that they shouldn't be cashing in on the mythology; but they are.

    There should be hard statistical analyses on these things or a major database, and prospective nursing students should be able to access this information.

    Things may pick up at some point; but we the need for nurses isn't going to be like it was 20 years ago or more, b/c the stays are limited, and much has moved out of the hospital. When you have inpatients, you have need for nurses around the clock. Guess what? Outpatient diagnostics and treatment generally doens't require around the clock nursing. It doesn't even pay for hospitals to pack beds into small areas like they used to do. They can give in-patients more space; b/c more has moved out.

    It's even beyond the issue of which nurses retire and which don't.

    The other issue is b/c of the costs to hospitals for many things--benefits in particular--they are generally preferring to hire RNs PT. Some hospitals actually prefer using travellers. They are paying their benes. It's like outsourcing to them.
  9. 0
    Quote from samadams8
    I think, at the very least, nursing school professors should be telling nurses about the level of difficulty in getting a job in many, if not most areas of the US, and the students need to put their dreams of specialization on a back burner, for the most part anyway. It's only realistic, and it's only fair. Yes, some will get those positions, if they are competitive enough to get into a nurse residency program, but MOST won't. Can't fit 100lbs in a 2 lb sack.
    We do. But no one wants to hear that their dreams are not immediately attainable.
  10. 0
    Quote from ProfRN4
    We do. But no one wants to hear that their dreams are not immediately attainable.

    I hear you. All you can do is tell the truth. What people do with it is up to them.

    BTW, BAZINGA! Sheldon is such a fun kind of crazy.


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