Is it moral for nursing schools to keep taking tuition if they canít place their - page 3

by chuckster

8,179 Views | 53 Comments

The question was from The Ethicist column in this Sundayís New York Times (found at . As you will see in the column (below), the question addressed law school, however, it is an equally valid question for nursing schools.... Read More


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    How can any sane adult human make the time/money investment of going to nursing school without first researching job prospects in their region? "hmmm, I'll just spend the next 2-4 years of my life at this school. Sure hope everything works out!"
    TheCommuter, Rose_Queen, and samadams8 like this.
  2. 5
    Quote from nursel56
    I've been doing quite a bit of reading about the way the nursing job market and nursing shortage are covered in popular media and I believe that the old adage "buyer beware" has never been more true than it is right now in the nursing education market.

    This is true mostly of for-profit schools, who produce what are dressed up to appear to be unbiased professional or scholarly blogs that actually are advertisements rife with misinformation. Unfortunately, not-for-profit schools tend to highlight things that benefit them to a lesser extent, with the results being the advo-blogs build an entire false scenario from a little snippet of information.

    When all is said and done, though, I don't think there should be a legal remedy enforced on schools based on the success or failure of any one person's job search.
    Personally think allot of persons have gone into nursing and or started school not out of any huge desire for the profession (though that may play some role in their decision), but out of a need to find what they assumed was a steady and possibly well paying gig. It didn't hurt that the federal government and others were pushing nursing to almost every downsized and or otherwise unemployed or under employed person.

    Tough cheese on them in that hospitals/facilities have firmly gone down the road of *not* being in the business of educating nurses and or other lofty ideals of the profession/expectations of society. They are hiring nurses that suit their needs as requirements demand by and large regardless of what nursing programs are doing.

    Hospitals are also getting wise to new grads using them as stepping stones to merely eek out the required clinical experience before moving onto advanced practice programs. In most local areas the hiring process for new and experienced nurses has become only slightly less difficult than competiting for Miss. Georiga World. Never before in the history of the profession IMHO has the hiring process involved so many objective and subjective testing, probing interviews, submission of reams of paperwork, and so froth. Only to find out the spot went to the sister of the cousin who is married to the one of the staff pharmacists because the NM *knows* them and as such she will be a perfect fit for the unit.
    nursel56, Susie2310, RNperdiem, and 2 others like this.
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    Is the economy stupid. Sorry I don't mean to be bad but up to 2008 nursing was a rock solid job guaranteed profession this is no longer true. Schools of course are business like any other, they must sell their product so the will of course sing the praises of pre 2008. So nursing is like any other profession now, hard to find a good job and job security is not so secure, still much better then many other professions and it could revert very quickly to what once it used to be...we just don't know when.
  4. 0
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Personally think allot of persons have gone into nursing and or started school not out of any huge desire for the profession (though that may play some role in their decision), but out of a need to find what they assumed was a steady and possibly well paying gig. It didn't hurt that the federal government and others were pushing nursing to almost every downsized and or otherwise unemployed or under employed person.

    Tough cheese on them in that hospitals/facilities have firmly gone down the road of *not* being in the business of educating nurses and or other lofty ideals of the profession/expectations of society. They are hiring nurses that suit their needs as requirements demand by and large regardless of what nursing programs are doing.

    Hospitals are also getting wise to new grads using them as stepping stones to merely eek out the required clinical experience before moving onto advanced practice programs. In most local areas the hiring process for new and experienced nurses has become only slightly less difficult than competiting for Miss. Georiga World. Never before in the history of the profession IMHO has the hiring process involved so many objective and subjective testing, probing interviews, submission of reams of paperwork, and so froth. Only to find out the spot went to the sister of the cousin who is married to the one of the staff pharmacists because the NM *knows* them and as such she will be a perfect fit for the unit.
    I love your post. Yes is so true many have entered the profession seeking job security and most of all an immediate an voracious need for nurses only to find that it became the most difficult, challenging almost impossible task to get a job as a new nurse. I've done some pretty darn strange things in my life and even though they were strange and rare I always found a job. Even the most difficult things I did in my life comes closer to the difficulty and the challenges I had finding a job as a nurse. I have never had to go through so many hoops and marathons as I did with nursing. By far the most difficulty I ever had finding a job in my life. It took me almost two years of intense work.
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    No it is not...my academic advisor encouraged me to go into nursing at their college even though their were 1500 kids in the program..and they only took 50 per semester for clinicals. I seriously thought about filing a class action suit but i transfered to another school and didnt have the time, knowhow or resources to do anything about it....like many other young college students.

    4 years ago this would not even have made the news so i guess its a step in the right direction.
  6. 1
    Quote from ixchel
    Maybe this isn't the most well reasoned and researched response, but I feel like so many people are looking for ways to be a victim. Take the time to research your program before applying or accepting your spot. Perhaps it is the responsibility of the school to announce how successful they are at turning out marketable graduates, but I think it is MORE the student's responsibility to make sure they are not wasting their time and money. Find grads of that program and talk to them. Talk to the hospital and doctors offices local to that school. Research, research, research! You CHOOSE where your money goes. Choose wisely.
    You hit the nail squarely on the head. Some law schools have actually warned students about unrealistic expectations, but that isn't the job of schools. The job of the school is to prepare a student adequately and beyond- that's what you pay tuition and lab fees for... not "job placement".

    It could also be argued that no one is stopping a new attorney from employing him/herself as many do; another reality is that the study of the letter of the law is often used by a student to augment a degree that they already hold (Macc./CPA, MBA, M Fin.,etc.) Many students never plan to use their J.D. to "practice" law, and thus never even think of taking the Bar... same goes for many medical school graduates never intending to use their M.D. to "practice" medicine but rather to augment their graduate degree in the bio sciences to find more profitable work and better quality of life working with a large pharmaceutical.

    Teaching you material well enough that you don't have to sweat the Bar, Boards, etc.. is the school's job.

    Knowing the job market is the student's job.
    Susie2310 likes this.
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    Schools provide education, not jobs. It is up to the prospective student to research job prospects for different fields and academic disciplines, and make the best choice for her/himself. If schools had to shut down departments that couldn't place all their graduates in jobs, there wouldn't be a single college/university left in the US that had a fine arts department -- and we would all be worse off for that. As already noted, a big piece of this is the (unfortunate) shift by many from looking at education as education to looking at education as the ticket to a particular job/career.
    nursel56, Altra, and Susie2310 like this.
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    Unless the school has a direct link to an institution that provides employment (I'm thinking of the hospital-based school of nursing, which are few and far between nowadays), I think it's absurd for someone to believe that a school will guarantee a job. It's like going to a doctor with a fatal illness, and then saying to the doctor "but you promised me I would not die". Its a very juvenile way of thinking. Life stinks, promises sometimes need to be broken. My ex and I promised to love each other, foresaking all others. That didn't happen .

    I walked into nursing school during a shortage. 2 years later, the powers that be had this brilliant idea to beef-up the role of the CNA, so they could do more RN duties. What did this mean for graduate nurses? Less jobs (we don't need you, the UAP can do half of your job). I graduated from a hospital based school, and this is where the majority of my class ended up working,

    You can't create jobs out of thin air. The for-profit nursing schools pride themselves on job placement (it's some sort of mandate, by whom, I'm not really sure). Look at Amy commercial for a trade/tech school: "job placement is available". I think it gives them extra federal funding or something. They try VERY HARD (most of them), as they have to justify that they are following through on their word. they follow every lead they get. they are relentless. But you can't get blood from a stone. And in the case of nursing, if its an ADN program,you can't make someone hire an AD nurse when they require a BS.
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    The product that a school is "selling" to the student is not a job, it's an education. No school promises that a degree will get you a job. Graduating from high school (even a private high school that you pay tuition at) doesn't guarantee that a student will get into college. Graduating from college doesn't guarantee you a job or admission into graduate school. And it's not unethical or immoral for a school to educate students without being able to guarantee these things. There are no guarantees in life. Now, when I graduated from college in 2007, the Nursing school was the only school in the University that had 100% of its students employed within 6 months. These numbers were published by the school/the student newspaper but I still never thought it was the school's job to secure my employment. They had resources (a Career Center to help with resumes and cover letters) to help and that I utilized but I always knew finding a job was my responsibility and mine alone.
  10. 0
    And on that note, I wonder if the person who wrote in to the NYT to ask this question thinks it's unethical for liberal arts schools to offer Undergraduate programs in things like History or Philosophy... which almost never earn the student a job.


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