LPNs Fight Efforts To Phase Them Out - pg.10 | allnurses

LPNs Fight Efforts To Phase Them Out - page 10

Licensed Practical Nurses at one hospital are fighting efforts to have them phased out of direct patient care. The hospital intends to go with a different care model calling for expanded use of RNs... Read More

  1. Visit  drmorton2b profile page
    1
    One of the LPNS I work with is in her early 50s she was the last one to be kicked out the door at the local acute care hospital. Been a Nurse since the early 70s. She told me... that back then it was Diploma RNs..the few BSNs around were the ones who ran the units or taught. Then the ADN Nurses came and thought they were the kings and would replace the Diploma RNs (a ton of hospitals in my area still have Diploma RNs working most are in their mid 40s on up)...now its all BSN Only around here for new hires..unless your grandfathered in.

    On the floor of most hospitals no one cares...as long as RN is after your name. Unless your the RN, NP, MD, DO.. no one cares if its ADN, BSN, MSN, Diploma.

    Its not because LPNs are inferior..sadly it is the way things are...

    I have 0 interest in working in a hospital.. I personally see anything relating to home care nursing as the future..Hospital Jobs will still be available just a lot harder to find and with too many nursing schools things will be even worse..

    The only thing future RNs have who want to work in the hospital is retirements (which a whole library of nursing knowledge goes down with it) of the current older RNs..

    My plan is to take my pre-reqs then off to an LPN-RN Bridge Program. Either Excelsior or the one at the local community college that is actually starting to understand that us LPNs actually work full-time and can't quit our jobs to return to school.

    I'm not going to go work in Long-Term Care unless my detox/psych facility closes.. The job market is to dry to try to mess around out here. My full-time job comes first. Plus I am interested in the field of psych/detox nursing always have been and I think I always will be.

    LPNS will be phased out of acute care.. its a game... its sad but true...

    Then eventually the BSNs will see their day when someone determine that a MSN RN has 20% better out comes when it comes to X, Y, Z.

    I usually go to the older nurses and I like to watch them work... because you learn so much just by being around them. Vs. Suzy 25 y/o nurse (note not ALL do this is an example) who got her BS in BS to BSN and is now texting on the phone instead of saying to the Pt. Hi I'm Suzy, RN what brought you to the ER today.......

    The older RNs (ones that got BSNs when it wasn't "cool" to get BSNs back in the early 70s) I have learned so much from and their will be a crisis in the next 5-10 years of older nurses both RN and LPN in all environments to precept newer grads. At least the grads who care.. and I hope to be one of them.
    nursel56 likes this.
  2. Visit  jahra profile page
    8
    Quote from GM2RN
    I wish I had known that all RNs are crap before I studied so long for my BSN. I could have save myself a lot of time money and had a superior education to boot if I'd stopped at an LPN.
    With all due respect, RNs on our unit years ago worked side by side with LPNs. The difference was that as an RN we needed to cover certain tasks that the LPN was not allowed to do in the scope of their license.

    The LPN was viewed as a peer, and was respected as such. The levels of education for RNs on the unit ranged from Diploma,ADN,BSN, and MSN.

    Never did I hear a nurse showboat what level of education he or she had.

    They gave input per patient to the team related to their experience
    knowledge, and role.

    It has only been recently that nursing itself has created a division in regard to nursing education.

    What appears to be missing for some today is respect. Respect for the fact that there would be no BSN programs without the nurses who have gone before you.

    ....It was diploma nurses who started the initiation for a BSN program
    in my area and many of them started as LPNs. This is true in many areas
    of the USA.

    Education is a plus, but without the respect to listen and learn from others who have gone before you ,you are only getting a partial education no matter what degree...


    What LPNs , Diploma nurses, and ADNs can tell you, is that years ago nursing was no easy job.

    Many of the benefits and other job perks nurses enjoy today were advocated by assertive, professional nurses who had the education that
    was cutting edge at that time, that includes LPNs.

    You can dismiss them, but you can not dismiss their influence to make nursing better for all nurses...
    Last edit by jahra on May 8, '11
  3. Visit  GM2RN profile page
    1
    Quote from jahra
    With all due respect, RNs on our unit years ago worked side by side with LPNs. The difference was that as an RN we needed to cover certain tasks that the LPN was not allowed to do in the scope of their license.

    The LPN was viewed as a peer, and was respected as such. The levels of education for RNs on the unit ranged from Diploma,ADN,BSN, and MSN.

    Never did I hear a nurse showboat what level of education he or she had.

    They gave input per patient to the team related to their experience
    knowledge, and role.

    It has only been recently that nursing itself has created a division in regard to nursing education.

    What appears to be missing for some today is respect. Respect for the fact that there would be no BSN programs without the nurses who have gone before you.

    ....It was diploma nurses who started the initiation for a BSN program
    in my area and many of them started as LPNs. This is true in many areas
    of the USA.

    Education is a plus, but without the respect to listen and learn from others who have gone before you ,you are only getting a partial education no matter what degree...


    What LPNs , Diploma nurses, and ADNs can tell you, is that years ago nursing was no easy job.

    Many of the benefits and other job perks nurses enjoy today were advocated by assertive, professional nurses who had the education that
    was cutting edge at that time, that includes LPNs.

    You can dismiss them, but you can not dismiss their influence to make nursing better for all nurses...

    This thread is not about the different levels of RNs; it's about LPN vs RN. As for education, LPN does not equal RN, regardless of what LPNs would like to believe. I'm sorry, but I don't care how good an LPN's IV and foley skills are--techs can be better at those skills than some nurses--eight months of experience as an LPN does not equate to an RN.

    Many of the RNs posting in this thread have agreed that enough experience can overcome the education difference, but some of the LPNs posting have been blind to this and have posted negative comments about RNs. So I agree, there's a lack of respect.

    There's also a lack of acknowledgement that not ALL LPNs are fantastic nurses and not ALL RNs are dimwits, but you'd never know it listening to some of the LPNs from this thread.

    What LPNs are missing is that the RNs here are not making the decisions to phase out LPNs, but some are acting as though we are. That decision comes from higher up and we have no control over that. We are just stating the facts and our opinions as we see them.
    Last edit by GM2RN on May 8, '11
    FranEMTnurse likes this.
  4. Visit  CCRNDiva profile page
    12
    GM2RN, I'm not sure if it was your intention, but IMHO, the tone of your post was insulting and dismissive. One of my pet peeves about nursing is the divisive nature displayed among us.

    I'm graduating from a RN-BSN completion program next week but it still bugs me when people insinuate that I was not a professional nurse prior to obtaining a BSN. Who precepts the new BSN grads or serves as their mentors? Many times it is a diploma or an ADN prepared RN. I was precepted by a diploma RN and I'm sure I still don't know what she knows.

    During my completion program, I attended management class with nursing students who have never practiced nursing, yet they were receiving instruction on managing nursing staff. Yes, I do believe the content of some of these programs lead some BSN prepared nurses to display an aire of superiority. Some of our instructors even had a dismissive attitude towards us, as RN-BSN completion students.

    My point is this: we, as nurses, outnumber those of any other health profession, yet we are the most disrespectful of one another. A MD may personally feel his education is superior to the that of the DO but you would never see them sponsor a study and report this in the media or to patients because they realize the strength they have as a whole is worth more than that. PharmDs and DPTs are not dismissing one another or disrespecting those who came before them (with lower levels of education). It is possible to support the advancement of nursing education without being disrespectful and dismissive towards our fellow nurses. We could accomplish so much if we were to embrace one another for our strengths and stand together as one.
    talaxandra, tsalagicara, karsjack, and 9 others like this.
  5. Visit  HazelLPN profile page
    0
    [QUOTE=GM2RN;5087623]I wish I had known that all RNs are crap before I studied so long for my BSN. I could have save myself a lot of time money and had a superior education to boot if I'd stopped at an LPN.[/QUOTE

    Please provide more specific information about what part of the post that you quoted by Yours Truly stated or implied that "all RNs are crap" and I will gladly attempt to clear up any misunderstandings that you have.

    Best to you,
    Mrs. H
  6. Visit  nursel56 profile page
    5
    Quote from jahra
    With all due respect, RNs on our unit years ago worked side by side with LPNs. The difference was that as an RN we needed to cover certain tasks that the LPN was not allowed to do in the scope of their license.

    The LPN was viewed as a peer, and was respected as such. The levels of education for RNs on the unit ranged from Diploma,ADN,BSN, and MSN.

    Never did I hear a nurse showboat what level of education he or she had.

    They gave input per patient to the team related to their experience
    knowledge, and role.

    It has only been recently that nursing itself has created a division in regard to nursing education.
    This. I guess for people who haven't lived through this evolution it's hard for them to fathom what we're talking about. To me one of the most discouraging aspects of it, is that the people who've created the division and taught their students to view any nurse without a BSN as inferior are the same people who propose the solution is for everything to follow their agenda aka "the single entry point" and accuse those who disagree with them of fomenting the divisions.

    Every goal stated by these people is laudable. I don't hear anyone here saying that furthering your education isn't necessary. Or even saying that in general, experience replaces formal education in any way. It's what they've had to do to the reputation of their sister (and brother) nurses along the way that I object to. Anyway, I can't really add anything to what you and HazelLPN have said, so I'll leave it be.

    Quote from GM2RN
    This thread is not about the different levels of RNs; it's about LPN vs RN. As for education, LPN does not equal RN, regardless of what LPNs would like to believe. I'm sorry, but I don't care how good an LPN's IV and foley skills are--techs can be better at those skills than some nurses--eight months of experience as an LPN does not equate to an RN.
    The thread isn't really even about LPN vs RN. It's about one group of LPNs at a hospital who've been handed their walking papers with virtually no notice, and drifted away from there.

    It's just as wrong for people to make sweeping generalizations about RNs as it is for anything else, and I cringe when I read some of the common complaints about BSNs being clueless on the floor, etc

    I've taken a great personal interest in the claims made by the BSN promoters and the tactics they use to advance their agenda. Do you think it would be a good idea to deny any student but a BSN student federal financial aid so those ADN and diploma programs will die on the vine? I see how they operate in the realm of policy-making and their media strategies. I've looked up the studies. I've looked up the studies their studies are based on. They've been successful with some of it, and not so much with others. I will guess, based on most of what I read here they are painting their student a far rosier scenario than is the case. Recently I read a recent grad saying "BSN in 10" is right around the corner, when in fact the only state that passed the law repealed it in 2003.

    There are so many inconsistencies you hardly know where to start. For example, the most commonly offered reason for the superiority of the BSN is the addtional "theory" classes. It's the theory that sets you apart from your merely task-trained LPNs and ADNs. You revealed a little of that bias yourself by assuming the difference between a CNA and an LPN must be their ability to perform tasks like Foleys, and not what they think or assess.

    As it happens in the real world a large chunk of the program is never used, or even reviled by working nurses. Shouldn't somebody be taking a look at that in terms of time and money wasted? That's what I think when I read post after post from students confused about "the client's impaired gas exchange or at risk for . . ." right next to one about the absolutely ridiculous NANDA diagnoses with lots of kudos!!

    How is it that the ANA looks down on LPN and ADN education and think a very short second degree BSN program is just great?

    Personally, I like certain theories and I love academics and a healthy to and fro about philosophies of nursing. I have the utmost respect for our nursing faculty here. I hope nobody ever takes critique as a disparaging comment. It's only a matter of how they're incorporated and interface with the real world.

    Well, anyway. There's a lot there to talk about, so I'll end it here. My last point would be that what hiring decisions are made by hospitals can be explained by factors other than proven unsafe or incompetent care by LPNs, ADNs, and Diploma nurses.
    herring_RN, CCRNDiva, FranEMTnurse, and 2 others like this.
  7. Visit  RhinoRocketRN profile page
    1
    fortunately I am from this area and can put forth some insight:

    The LPNs at this facility have been in the process of being phased out for several years. It was and still is known that once an LPN leaves this facility, he or she will be replaced by a UAP, not an LPN. LPNs have not been hired at this facility for years now. Unfortunately as I am told this information was "leaked" before any details could be worked out.

    So NO they were not just handed their pink slips one day and told they no longer work here. This has been a process for the past few years.

    Do I think hospitals should phase out LPNs? No, however at this facility LPNs are not used the way they should be. Instead of phasing them out, this facility should restructure their scope of practice and allow for these LPNs to take patient teams and for all LPNs to pass medications... this is not the case.
    DogWmn likes this.
  8. Visit  anniv91106 profile page
    1
    Quote from GM2RN
    This thread is not about the different levels of RNs; it's about LPN vs RN. As for education, LPN does not equal RN, regardless of what LPNs would like to believe. I'm sorry, but I don't care how good an LPN's IV and foley skills are--techs can be better at those skills than some nurses--eight months of experience as an LPN does not equate to an RN.

    Many of the RNs posting in this thread have agreed that enough experience can overcome the education difference, but some of the LPNs posting have been blind to this and have posted negative comments about RNs. So I agree, there's a lack of respect.

    There's also a lack of acknowledgement that not ALL LPNs are fantastic nurses and not ALL RNs are dimwits, but you'd never know it listening to some of the LPNs from this thread.

    What LPNs are missing is that the RNs here are not making the decisions to phase out LPNs, but some are acting as though we are. That decision comes from higher up and we have no control over that. We are just stating the facts and our opinions as we see them.

    What/who is the "higher up" that this is coming from? Shall we blame corporations, managers, joint commision, the unions??? Who's turn to play the bad guy so there's no accountability?

    Getting rid of LPNs has not been able to be accomplished through legislation so now we are being led to turn on each other--if RNs refuse to supervise LPNs then those "in power" get what they want and the dirty work has been done by nurses themselves. No wonder nursing is in the condition it is!

    What will you do when it comes time to take a stand for what is right where you work? Wake up nurses!

    How can we get an update about the original article in this thread?
    martinalpn likes this.
  9. Visit  frenchfroggyRN profile page
    0
    The town I work in Does hire LPNs, in fact we have as many LPNs as RNs working. I am a RN BSN who was an LPN first. I do continue to work on the floor side by side with the LPNs wiping behinds, I do not feel that I am any better because of my degree. Yes, I have more education than the LPNs, but that was my choice, if they want to go back to school and get their RN they can and most of our LPNs are going to school. But we replace them with LPNs when they leave or put them to work as RNs on our floor/ER.
  10. Visit  tferdaise profile page
    5
    I think what people are missing really is not the RN v LPN since the facilities usually follow state board rules. The real issue is making Nursing a real profession. Currently it still is looked at as a vocation and why is that? One of the main reasons is, there are too many entry points into nursing, LPN, ADN, Diploma, BSN. One paper I wrote in my BSN program was how to make nursing more of a professional Profession. How I did this was I did a compare and contrast paper between Engineers and Nursing. Basically before people start the flame, hear me out.

    Engineering like nursing had many entry points into the field of engineering, some went to a 4 years school, some went to a trade school and some worked as an apprentice before being allowed to use the title Engineer. That all changed around 30 years ago when it became mandatory that only people who went received a 4 year degree from an accredited school could start the journey to be an engineer. Before this happened, Engineering was thought as a Vocations also. It's now a professional profession, and all of the infighting that nursing is going through happened in the Engineering world.

    Am I saying that everybody who isn't a BSN prepared RN can not practice as a RN, NO that would be stupid and illogical. These people would be grandfathered into the profession just like they were with the Engineers. But there has to be a point in which the profession needs to do something to pull up its boot straps and take the plunge and say, starting in 2018 and after only people graduating from a BSN program can sit for the boards and have the title RN.

    Does this sound harsh, no, but its what is needed to move the nursing profession to the next level. Everything is almost in place for this to happen, but the biggest hurdle is the amount of $$ community colleges have spent on ADN programs.

    I was an LPN for 6 years before going back and getting my RN, BSN and now currently in MSN.
    JaaM, Laurie52, MandaRN94, and 2 others like this.
  11. Visit  ThePrincessBride profile page
    2
    If they want to avoid this mess, then they should advanced their education. This "bad-ass" rebel act is not going to get them anything but the boot. Besides, it would only take one more year of education...is it really worth all that ******** and complaining?

    No. It isn't.
    Laurie52 and lindarn like this.
  12. Visit  nursel56 profile page
    1
    Quote from ThePrincessBride
    If they want to avoid this mess, then they should advanced their education. This "bad-ass" rebel act is not going to get them anything but the boot. Besides, it would only take one more year of education...is it really worth all that ******** and complaining?

    No. It isn't.
    Where do you see that anyone in this article refused to "advanced" their education? Badass? What a shame that someone with an attitude like that is planning to join our ranks. You certainly are judgemental for someone who isn't any kind of nurse yet. Whatever the merits of the issues themsellves, there is no place for disrespectful dialogue like that, and disappointing that anyone would "kudo" that.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Oct 23, '11
    HazelLPN likes this.
  13. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    2
    Quote from ThePrincessBride
    If they want to avoid this mess, then they should advanced their education. This "bad-ass" rebel act is not going to get them anything but the boot. Besides, it would only take one more year of education...is it really worth all that ******** and complaining?

    No. It isn't.
    Just so you know Licensed Practical Nursing is it's own distinct area of nursing with it's own scope of practice. It is *not* a shortened "RN" scheme though at some point most all states permitted ADN and BSN students to take the pratical nurse boards after only several semesters.

    At the time LPN/LVN schools were founded the standard education for RN's in the United States was the traditional three year hospital program. The former continued with their (usually) one year program even after ADN/AAS (two year) degrees were founded and many diploma programs were shortened as well.

    Furhtermore as for the "only one more year of education...." the same can be said of ADN/AAS nurses who did not or will not go for their BSN; afterall it is only two more years........

    There are many areas of healthcare today for which LPNs/LVNs are well suited, problem is bean counters would rather pay for a souped up CNA or tech than a licensed nurse.
    frenchfroggyRN and lindarn like this.


Nursing Jobs in every specialty and state. Visit today and find your dream job.

Visit Our Sponsors
Top
close
close