Lowering Nursing Salaries - page 11

Have any of you got news of them lowering salaries due to the shortage? There had been talk of the new hires salaries being lowered.... Read More

  1. by   $/satisfaction?
    Supply and demand is what you want to look at. Increase supply will lower demand which will decrease our money. If supply is greater then we become less important. MD's, PT, Pharm D and etc. limit the amout allowed in their fields which keeps demand high which equals $. Why should not the nurses do the same. We should be in control of ourselves not the hospitals, doctors and admin people. WHen will we all get with the program we work to eat feed our family's go on vacation etc. Of course we want to do something we enjoy since we will do it 40 plus hours aweek for 40 plus years.:smackingf
  2. by   tweetyd
    [FONT="Georgia"] Some how I don't think they get it We can continue nursing in other field such as Legal nurse cosultant, Pharmacutical comp are paying top dollar for nurses, Consultant comps also, and so on. So why risk being under staffed, overworked, and paperloged for less pay.

    HHHMMMM I'll sign up, Not:wink2:
  3. by   cmrrn
    How silly is that!!!!!! In my area, nursing staff won't come in extra unless it is fo rtime and one half and I heartily agree. We have not ever had that salaries that we should have. Institutions will find even fewer nurses applying as well as the retention will be poor.
  4. by   lindarn
    I beg to differ with you on the issues of foreign nurses, and for that matter, the issue of the H1 B Visa program, for professionals. Just last night on Lou Dobbs, on CNN, did a whole progam on this subject. It was stated that, (and I have heard this before), that the professions that utilize these visas, and where foreign professional are brought into this country for a particular career field, it is used as an excuse to pay lower salaries, and the salaries for the American counterparts concominantly, drop as well. These are hard facts, not made up hysteria. I have nothing against foreign nurses, but as Lou Dobbs said, they are being used in many career fields to artificailly depress the salaries of the entire career field. With the American workers bearing the brunt of this. Lou Dobbs stated this in no uncertain terms. He also said that the main reaon this is done, is to not only to pay workers less money, but you have a compliant working staff, that doesn't complain about, and demand as much. These are the same issues that have been brought out here on this listserve, by the nurses who have been there, done that, and had to fight every inch of the way in those "right to work "states. It is not a fallacy or prejudice against foreign workers.

    As I stated in my previous thread, I have no problem with the individuals who wait their turn, and come here legally, I also have no problem with other immigrants who come here for a better life. I have a problem with the ones who are brought here by the hospitals and nursing homes. This give these instituitions no incentive to correct the working conditiond, pay, and benefits for the American nurses who are here. The same reason that nurses are a dime a dozen, graduating every 6 months from ABC Community College. The pipeline for nurses is wide open, and there is no incentive for hospitals to improve anything. As was also stated above, MDs, PTs. Pharmacists, have much higher entry in to practice requirement, which this of itself, limits the "pipeline", keeping demand high, and wages high as well. I am not the only person on this listserve who has made these observations. It is not a matter of discrimnation aginst LPNs, Nurses Aides, etc. It is a matter of updating the standards of the profession and to decrease the pipeline.

    No one said that the Community Colleges and Diploma programs do not graduate good nurses. But with healthcare becomning more complex every year, the requirement to become an RN need to be increased as well. Other professions have made these same assessments and made the changes neccessary to accomadate the changes in the healh care field.

    As I have said many times on this listserve, our low levels of education make/made us an easy target for replacing, de skilling, and de- professionalize our profession. I have also said, that as the nursing shortage worsens, (I mean the increasing need for RNs due to baby boomers aging, etc), that the hospitals, and insurance companies will use it as a reason/excuse to pressure the legislature and Boards of Nursing, to allow more de skilling to occur, and more of our professional practice be handed over to unlicensed- assitive. All under the guise that the hospitals "can't find enough nurses to care for their patients". This is already occurring in South Carolina. The article on this subject is a recent thread on this listserve. That is what the hospitals and nursing homes South Caroliona are asking their state legislatures to do give them. More unlcensed personnel to replace the nurses in the hospitals, and nursing homes provide the care that they provide to patients. How long do you think it will take for this to take hold in other states if they are successful?

    Seeing that there are 500, 000 nurses (including me), not working as nurses, and there are supposedly about 125,000 nursing slots that have remain unfilled for a long period, perhaps the hospitals should offer to pay nurses more, improve benefits, and definately improve working conditions, many of these nurses would come back. That is what is happening in California with the passager of the staffing rations, and the higer pay.

    Nurses need to keep tabs on what is going on their state concerning health care. Ideally, your state nurses association should be providing you with this information. I realize that many state nursing associations leave something to be desired, but the information can be obtained on you states' web sites, and "FindLaw.com", is a wealth of information. So is you state bar association, and trial lawyers associations. Educate your self or be eliminated.

    There is not enough attention being paid to retainment of the nurses already in the pipeline. New grads leave bedside nursing in about 5 years, and never come back due to the above issues. Why do we need masses of foreign nurses brought here, when no one will try to keep the ones that are here? I have a problem with the "quick fix mentality" of the hospitals. That is also the reason that nurses salaries and benefits, are not rising. There is no "supply and demand" problem. But that is not what the hospitals want. They want to continue to control the nursing profession, and the best way to do it is to annoy the experienced ones, and keep bringing in new ones to replace us. With the lower pay, of course. And by fighting the increase in the entry in to practice, we perpetuate, and assist the hospitals in their ultimate goal. That is to eliminate the nursing profession entirely, or deminish the control, influence, need for, what little we have even more. Think out side the box!JMHO.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  5. by   fergus51
    Linda, it is made up hysteria. Foreign nurses can not come to work in America unless they have a greencard. There are no H1B visas being issued (not to nurses at least). That means, those greencard holders have the same rights to move and change jobs as American nurses do. They are not tied to their employer, so there is not any way to force them to take lower paying positions. You and Lou Dobbs don't seem to have all the facts on this one.

    The only nurses able to come here without their greencards are those nurses covered under NAFTA (Canadians) and I know they aren't coming to the US to take low paying jobs. That's why you'll meet lots of Canadian nurses in California and not that many in Mississippi.
  6. by   SFCardiacRN
    Nursing pay NEVER drops...it only goes up! Bashing foreign nurses is plain racism IMHO. They are filling a need, are good nurses, are good for nursing.
  7. by   fergus51
    Quote from SFCardiacRN
    Nursing pay NEVER drops...it only goes up! Bashing foreign nurses is plain racism IMHO. They are filling a need, are good nurses, are good for nursing.
    I agree. I'd rather work with a foreign nurse than take an unsafe patient load because we can't get enough American nurses to work.
  8. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I think Linda's post does bring an issue to light. WHY do we HAVE to recruit overseas? Why are there not enough nurses? It's easy to see for me:

    1. nursing professors and instructors have no real incentive to continue or even start teaching ( I know I won't unless pay and treatment improves a LOT); Our nursing educators are paid and treated poorly by comparison to other professors. There are literally 1000s of potential nursing students who simply CANNOT get past the 2-3 (or more) year wait to get into school .Not enough instructors is a HUGE problem nationwide.

    2. bedside nurses ARE being treated horrendously at the hospitals and LTC's, nationwide. Yes, the "warm body" requirement is formost in most employers' minds----- the bottom line---- NOT any consideration for improving conditions or the plight of the valuable and precious resource right UNDER THEIR NOSES: their most experienced American nursing workforce. I see what is going on. I have nothing against international nurses, but I do have issues with the "warm body" attitude by so many hospitals and colleges/universities.

    3. Precious few employers care to retain the quality experienced nurses they have. Why should they? It's a lot easier to cry "shortage" and just use that to justify looking for cheaper or quicker alternatives. I do think it is a form of outsourcing that should be curtailed til all domestic possibilities are exhausted FIRST.

    I am no racist and I don't think having nurses from other nations is a horrible thing, but I see this much: Importing nurses does NOTHING to improve these situations in the least.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Jan 17, '06
  9. by   fergus51
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I am no racist and I don't think having nurses from other nations is a horrible thing, but I see this much: Importing nurses does NOTHING to improve these situations in the least.
    No. But it lets me provide safe nursing care to my patients.

    It also doesn't stop us from adressing those issues. CNA got the ratio law passed which has resulted in a large number of nurses return to nursing in California or move here to nurse. That's despite California having probably one of the biggest percentages of foreign nurses. I don't see them getting that in Alabama. Foreign nurses and nursing conditions are two different issues.
  10. by   hipab4hands
    [quote=SFCardiacRN]Nursing pay NEVER drops...it only goes up!

    This is not true. When I got out of school in 1991, there was an "oversupply" of nurses. Hospitals were laying off nurses in droves. The few hospitals that were hiring had Non union facilities. They actually started to drop their salaries and still had nurses applying for thier low wages. The hospitals that were doing this and able to get away with it, because for every opening they had they might get 100 desperate applicants.

    I've been in this field long enough to know that we will have another one of these cycles and salaries will drop.
  11. by   Sheri257
    Quote from SFCardiacRN
    Nursing pay NEVER drops...it only goes up!
    Yeah ... but not by much.

    It's easy for us Californians to say nursing pay goes up because we have unions which have done a lot to raise pay for nurses here ...

    But the rest of the country isn't doing that well. Look at Chart 7 from this U.S. Health Department document:

    http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce...ryfindings.htm

    From 2000-2004 nursing pay nationwide jumped by $11,000 annually which sounds like a lot but, after you adjust for inflation, that's only a $3,000 increase over four years.

    When you look at the last 25 years, the "real" wage increases are even more pathetic:

    Since 1980 real wages have only increased from $17,000 annually in 1980 to $26,000 today. And these figures don't include benefit deduction increases that have probably reduced nursing wages even further.

    While the nursing shortage should be driving up wages, there's not much evidence that it actually has. Mostly because hospitals intentionally depress wages with the constant hiring of new grads over more expensive, veteran nurses, anti-union efforts, adding more patients to RN workloads, etc.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Jan 18, '06
  12. by   SFCardiacRN
    I've only been a nurse since 2000 so I don't know how things used to be. Todays shortage will not go away anytime soon. Any hospital that lowers its nursing pay is soon going to be out of nurses very quickly.
  13. by   $/satisfaction?
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I think Linda's post does bring an issue to light. WHY do we HAVE to recruit overseas? Why are there not enough nurses? It's easy to see for me:

    1. nursing professors and instructors have no real incentive to continue or even start teaching ( I know I won't unless pay and treatment improves a LOT); Our nursing educators are paid and treated poorly by comparison to other professors. There are literally 1000s of potential nursing students who simply CANNOT get past the 2-3 (or more) year wait to get into school .Not enough instructors is a HUGE problem nationwide.

    2. bedside nurses ARE being treated horrendously at the hospitals and LTC's, nationwide. Yes, the "warm body" requirement is formost in most employers' minds----- the bottom line---- NOT any consideration for improving conditions or the plight of the valuable and precious resource right UNDER THEIR NOSES: their most experienced American nursing workforce. I see what is going on. I have nothing against international nurses, but I do have issues with the "warm body" attitude by so many hospitals and colleges/universities.

    3. Precious few employers care to retain the quality experienced nurses they have. Why should they? It's a lot easier to cry "shortage" and just use that to justify looking for cheaper or quicker alternatives. I do think it is a form of outsourcing that should be curtailed til all domestic possibilities are exhausted FIRST.

    I am no racist and I don't think having nurses from other nations is a horrible thing, but I see this much: Importing nurses does NOTHING to improve these situations in the least.
    I could not agree more "importing nurses" will only short change our cause. Our cause is higher $$$$, and respect, to be treated as a profession not as handmaids. Importing nurses from India and other countries their training and socialization is to be handmaids not to be equals. We left that many many years ago and why should we return to it.

    I say limit the number of "imports" force the states to recruit our people and in a few years we will have done what 50 years of work has accomplished. Use the economic market forces in our favor.

    Remember it all about the money.

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