Lowering Nursing Salaries - page 10

Have any of you got news of them lowering salaries due to the shortage? There had been talk of the new hires salaries being lowered.... Read More

  1. by   Little Panda RN
    Quote from grace90
    Alright, now you got my attention. 2 minutes ago I was disgruntled with nursing. However, when I read this statement and that whole reply accompanying it, it made by sit up straight and put my shoulders back and put on my white cap (well, okay, I don't have a white cap).

    Ever considered a different profession?

    Why do I work as a floor nurse?
    1st off, someone has to.
    Someone has to get their hands dirty and be elbow deep in the puke. Someone has to hold the confused and frightened old lady's hand when she's laying in the hospital attached to buck's traction in pain and not knowing where she is or where her mother is.
    Someone has to be there when the 21 year old is threatening to miscarry her first baby.
    Someone has to be there in the middle of the night when sleep won't come and fear of the unknown has overwhelmed the 33 year old mother of 5 diagnosed with colon cancer.
    Someone has to be there for the 48 year old diabetic who's heart and kidneys are failing, when he can barely breathe because his lungs are full of fluid, and the Dr. just took off the top of his foot, and he only speaks a handful of English.
    Someone has to be there for the 50 year old special ed teacher with 3 teenage children who was hit by a drunk driver and broke both arms.

    Why am I a floor nurse?
    Because I've seen the comforting power of a warm blanket, and gentle touch and a warm cup of tea to a dying elderly woman.
    Because I've held a terminally ill woman's hand as she died, and comforted her daughter.
    Because I've done a dance at a patient's bedside when they passed gas for the first time in 2 weeks, and done an even bigger dance when I came in the next night and saw his name on the list of discharged patients.
    Because we nurses see our fellow man when they are down, when they're sick, when they're life isn't going as planned. We see the ugly side of life. We know we can't fix it, but we can do our durndest to make it better.
    That's why some of us want to do floor nursing.

    God bless you! We need more nurses who understand what nursing is all about.
  2. by   $/satisfaction?
    Nusing needs to upgrade and value our position. This will occur when we change the demand curve. The law of supply and demand is a fundamental law that all nurse need to understand. In simple terms the greater the demand then supply, drives the price up until it meets equilibrium. Equilibrium is a place that the supply equals the demand. Not all can afford the product and not all will desire it but for those that need it and want it the price will be set based on market demands.

    During the price drive up period nursing will be come more and more attractive to those that are not in the field. Thus bringing more individuals or "competitors" to the market. During this phase nurses income should rise. As the market becomes saturated the supply has over come the demand and nurses income declines. Eco 101.

    Now lets focus on our profession and what to do with improving it. Raise the standard of entry to a BSN just like the pharmacits did a few years back. They raised the standard to a PharmD. This created a supply and demand problem, greater demand then supply. By doing this it drove up their income.

    Second we need to limit the number of foreign nuses into the market. Just like the Yugo car foreign nurses may meet the "safety" standard but they lack the American training. Foreign nurse lack many things but a major problem is their understanding of the psycho-social aspects of the American individual. American nurses for the last ten years or so have recignized the need to understand the behaviors of foreign patients. Many customs are odd/different/foregien to our thinking but we accept them. Many foreign born nurses come from cultures that are so far removed from the freedoms we have cannot understand how to deal with our American patients. I could name afew countries but for those of us that work with these nurses..... This problem is just one aspect of the problem of foreign nurses.

    Well maybe an unpopular idea we need to negotiate with our nurse recruiter, DNS, HR, and etc. for a wage that you would work for. Instead of taking the first offer. Remember if they really want you they will pay more. Oh, but some of you believe we should take what they offer. But why? There are many reasons that are offered but none that improves your financial position in life.

    There are many other ways to drive up salaries but "chew" on these.
    Last edit by $/satisfaction? on Jan 11, '06
  3. by   starbin
    [/quote]
    second we need to limit the number of foreign nuses into the market. just like the yugo car foreign nurses may meet the "safety" standard but they lack the american training. foreign nurse lack many things but a major problem is their understanding of the psycho-social aspects of the american individual. american nurses for the last ten years or so have recignized the need to understand the behaviors of foreign patients. many customs are odd/different/foregien to our thinking but we accept them. many foreign born nurses come from cultures that are so far removed from the freedoms we have cannot understand how to deal with our american patients. i could name afew countries but for those of us that work with these nurses..... this problem is just one aspect of the problem of foreign nurses.[/quote]

    i extremely disagree with you. i don't know if you are familiar with the process of hiring a foreign nurse. the employer should produce adequate proof (a written document and a job posting notice) that they had posted a job for at least 10 business days and no qualified american nurse applied for the post. the employer is supposed to fill the position so, it hires a foreign nurse.
    the decision of whether or not to hire a foreign nurse totally depends on the employer. there are many many hospitals who do not sponsor foreign nurses, few of them also require a year or so minimum experience in usa. it is not only in nursing where the need for workers is partially fulfilled by foreign employees. ask those employers and consumers of health care whether they would like to be cared by a foreign nurse or they would just be fine without having a nurse to care for? foreign nurses are hired only if there are no us nurses available for that position. if foreign nurses are not hired or all foreign nurses are taken out the work load will accumulate on the head of us nurses. it will further increse stress and burn-out among nurses. it would be in interest of nurses to accept the fact rather than envying others.
    about the salary- while hiring a foreign nurse..the employer sends a proof of document to uscis that it is capable of paying the nurse salary. the proof is in form of tax return, annual report of financial audit. the department of labor needs that the hired employee be provided the same benefits and salary as other employees with same qualification and position would receive. this means that foreign nurse should not get less salary than a us nurse. in other words, there is no devaluation in nursing salary becayse of foreign nurses. i don't see any reason why foreign nurses should take the job market of us nurses.
    about the skill of foreign nurses,,,the bon first assesses the educational credentials of any foreign nurses before allowing them take the exam. foreign nurses as well as us nurses take the same exam to become rn. they go through the orientation and preceptorship before independently taking care of a patient. they are also tought and trained about human psychology, human behavior and cultural aspect of nursing. us nurses should not forget taht us is a multicultural society and understanding only one culture does not mean that you can deal with an immigrant patient. that is why we need training and exposure. about you explanation of freedom, it is within yourself. i remember that nursing text books say "we should not impose our values on others". the definition of freedom could be different from person to person. i personally believe that everybody should be responsible and should know their limits. foreign nurses are also tought the same books written by us nursing educators/researchers. most of the foreign nurses hold bsn degree. about psychosocial needs of american patient they may be knowing the theory but nobody understands the foreign culture well without being exposed to that. many things differ from family to family even in the same race, society and nation.
  4. by   BillEDRN
    Quote from kadokin
    I don't know if you mean the western united states or the western world, but I personally am opposed to unions in nursing b/c:
    -I don't believe healthcare needs ANOTHER level of bureaucracy. As it stands, most decisions in healthcare have to take multiple agendas/interests into account such as: management, physicians, public health, joint commission, hippa, ada, etc. and of course, nurses and patients. Do we really need to add the union agenda to the list?
    -If a union represents a group, the individual members of that group may find their own concerns/needs taking a backseat to the concerns and needs of the union. I don't believe this is always a good idea. Sometimes, it's the diversity of a group that makes it stronger as a unit.
    Don't get me wrong. I like the idea of unions in theory and have no problem w/people who choose to organize, if that is their desire. I just think we have to be careful when we give others the prerogative to make our decisions for us.
    Union agenda? A union is there to represent your interests. As you so accurately note many decisions in healthcare today are made because a group of professionals/organizations/individuals (be it hospitals, hospital adminstrators, Joint Commision or physicians) are able to come together, reach a consensus decision about what they believe will be in their best interests, and then, as a group pursue that "agenda." Unfortunately, nurses have not yet realized the incredible power we could wield if we could come together for our causes and are frequently left out of this decision making process because of it. The California Nurses' Association is a great example. While I disagree with some of their actions, the fact is that they were able to lobby the California legislators and pass the only patient nurse staffing law in the nation. They also have some of the highest pay scales and best working conditions (because of contract language) in the nation. So, while many of our colleagues continue to waste valuable energy and time debating ADN vs BSN, or union vs. no union, the real opportunities to impact OUR practice and profession is passing us by. In the real world we need to realize that political action and influence is key to making changes. We cannot sit here and have endless debates about issues we can never actually influence until we come together, be it by unionizing or making an organization like ANA more powerful and responsive, and able to influence lawmakers at the highest levels. If you doubt this real power, all you need to do is look at the hospital associations, the AMA or the drug companies, who are some of the biggest influences on Capitol Hill, and see what they have accomplished for their respective groups. If nurses want to have that same opportunity to "take our message" to those that can actually do something about it, we need to become involved. If you are concerned about a union not representing "the individuals" then you don't understand that a union is what the members want, or allow it to be. If you sit back, never participate and simply complain when the union takes a stance that is contray to yours, then you have no one to blame but yourself. It's sort of like voting...if you don't vote, you can't complain about who gets elected to office. So, while I agree that the last thing healthcare needs is another layer of beauracracy, I don't think that is the case with unionizing. It just allows nurses to participate on a more equal footing in representing nurses needs/concerns at the hospital, local, state and national level.
  5. by   SFCardiacRN
    AMEN Bill. I don't agree with everything CNA does BUT they have been very good for nurses in CA. My hospital doesn't even have CNA (we have NFFE-IAM) but I still benefit from CNA's actions. My hospital has to keep up to attract RN's! I see a lot of mid-western based RN's complaining about low pay and huge patient loads but what should they expect in a "RIGHT TO WORK" state?
  6. by   mm4785
    Wow, imigrant bashing in the form of picking on foreign nurses. It's funny, my mother came here in the 60's as an RN from England, and people had the same arguments back then - some things never change. Oh and sometimes the foreign nurses are American nurses - they trained here and have only worked in this country, but because they have accents or "look" foreign people assume that they were trained overseas.
    I've worked with plenty of foreign born nurses, and I can't say that they are any different from American nurses. But then again I don't have any problems with foreign born people, I just try really hard to treat people as individuals - my relationships with them are not based on their nationality, ethnicity, race or religion. And isn't that's how we are supposed to treat our patients? So why can't we treat our coworkers the same way? Just as we respect our patients cultural differences we also need to respect our own colleagues cultural differences.
    And finally, when you mentioned the "psychosocial aspects of the American individual" - what are you implying that if you are not American you should not be working with American patients? Then conversely American nurses shouldn't work with foreign patients? That wouldn't make any sense. I just don't understand your arguements about foreign nurses.
    Last edit by mm4785 on Jan 13, '06
  7. by   WDWpixieRN
    Quote from grace90
    Alright, now you got my attention. 2 minutes ago I was disgruntled with nursing. However, when I read this statement and that whole reply accompanying it, it made by sit up straight and put my shoulders back and put on my white cap (well, okay, I don't have a white cap).

    Ever considered a different profession?

    Why do I work as a floor nurse?
    1st off, someone has to.
    Someone has to get their hands dirty and be elbow deep in the puke. Someone has to hold the confused and frightened old lady's hand when she's laying in the hospital attached to buck's traction in pain and not knowing where she is or where her mother is.
    Someone has to be there when the 21 year old is threatening to miscarry her first baby.
    Someone has to be there in the middle of the night when sleep won't come and fear of the unknown has overwhelmed the 33 year old mother of 5 diagnosed with colon cancer.
    Someone has to be there for the 48 year old diabetic who's heart and kidneys are failing, when he can barely breathe because his lungs are full of fluid, and the Dr. just took off the top of his foot, and he only speaks a handful of English.
    Someone has to be there for the 50 year old special ed teacher with 3 teenage children who was hit by a drunk driver and broke both arms.

    Why am I a floor nurse?
    Because I've seen the comforting power of a warm blanket, and gentle touch and a warm cup of tea to a dying elderly woman.
    Because I've held a terminally ill woman's hand as she died, and comforted her daughter.
    Because I've done a dance at a patient's bedside when they passed gas for the first time in 2 weeks, and done an even bigger dance when I came in the next night and saw his name on the list of discharged patients.
    Because we nurses see our fellow man when they are down, when they're sick, when they're life isn't going as planned. We see the ugly side of life. We know we can't fix it, but we can do our durndest to make it better.
    That's why some of us want to do floor nursing.
    Holy moly....VERY touching....I need to print this and put it in CLEAR view if I ever manage to get in to an RN program -- and even before.

    You brought tears to my eyes and I wish I saw more of that type of compassion posted on these boards -- particularly in the "Would you go in to nursing again " threads...yikes!
  8. by   kookinitreal
    Quote from MTBanRN
    Have any of you got news of them lowering salaries due to the shortage? There had been talk of the new hires salaries being lowered.
    yeah right. supply & demand.
  9. by   SFCardiacRN
    Second we need to limit the number of foreign nurses into the market
    I cannot agree with this. Some of the best nurses on my unit are from the Philippines. Some trained here and some trained there but they all passed the NCLEX.
  10. by   hipab4hands
    Well maybe an unpopular idea we need to negotiate with our nurse recruiter, DNS, HR, and etc. for a wage that you would work for. Instead of taking the first offer. Remember if they really want you they will pay more. Oh, but some of you believe we should take what they offer. But why? There are many reasons that are offered but none that improves your financial position in life.

    .[/quote]
    Amen. I interviewed for a job, where they offered a "lowball" salary and the hiring manager stated they just couldn't meet my salary demand. I did not ask for any outrages salary-I did my research and asked for what the "average" salary for nurses was in my area.

    I looked on hotjobs. com the other day and found that the position has been open since August/05 and they still haven't been able to fill it. This was after the interviewer told me they had "plenty' of candidates, who were more than willing to work for their "generous" salary. Obviously no one wants to work for their "generous" wages.
  11. by   ADDnurse
    Quote from $/satisfaction?
    Nusing needs to upgrade and value our position. This will occur when we change the demand curve. The law of supply and demand is a fundamental law that all nurse need to understand. In simple terms the greater the demand then supply, drives the price up until it meets equilibrium. Equilibrium is a place that the supply equals the demand. Not all can afford the product and not all will desire it but for those that need it and want it the price will be set based on market demands.

    During the price drive up period nursing will be come more and more attractive to those that are not in the field. Thus bringing more individuals or "competitors" to the market. During this phase nurses income should rise. As the market becomes saturated the supply has over come the demand and nurses income declines. Eco 101.

    Now lets focus on our profession and what to do with improving it. Raise the standard of entry to a BSN just like the pharmacits did a few years back. They raised the standard to a PharmD. This created a supply and demand problem, greater demand then supply. By doing this it drove up their income.

    Second we need to limit the number of foreign nuses into the market. Just like the Yugo car foreign nurses may meet the "safety" standard but they lack the American training. Foreign nurse lack many things but a major problem is their understanding of the psycho-social aspects of the American individual. American nurses for the last ten years or so have recignized the need to understand the behaviors of foreign patients. Many customs are odd/different/foregien to our thinking but we accept them. Many foreign born nurses come from cultures that are so far removed from the freedoms we have cannot understand how to deal with our American patients. I could name afew countries but for those of us that work with these nurses..... This problem is just one aspect of the problem of foreign nurses.

    Well maybe an unpopular idea we need to negotiate with our nurse recruiter, DNS, HR, and etc. for a wage that you would work for. Instead of taking the first offer. Remember if they really want you they will pay more. Oh, but some of you believe we should take what they offer. But why? There are many reasons that are offered but none that improves your financial position in life.

    There are many other ways to drive up salaries but "chew" on these.
    You must be new to nursing because you talk about the problems of nursing in such simplistic terms. These problems have been with us for many years. In the early 80's there was a nursing shortage, and like today, the short-term solution was to recruit foreign nurses. However unlike your characterization of them as being inferior, the opposite was true. Prior to immigrating the nurses had to have two years nursing experience, they sat the CGFNS exam, showed proficiency in English, and then sat, and for the most part passed the NYCLEX exam (those who couldn't pass it had their visa's revoked and were sent home). As to raising the standard of our profession by raising the standard of entry to a BSN, that's been the ANA's policy position, and tried without success, for over twenty years. I'm sorry but in today's market place, we don't have enough BSN nurses, or enough faculty to produce sufficient numbers of BSN's any time in the near future. You can't just proclaim this is the new standard without providing an adequate incentive. Keep things as they are, but make a BSN the minimum qualification for advancement in the profession, MSN for advanced practice, and PhD as the standard in our senior educators. As far as the supply and demand problem, we have the shortage, and the demand, but we still haven't been able to transfer that into better working conditions and salaries, with the exception of Ca, because the Hospital Associations, and our managers, have manipulated and divided us so well. We're told our problems are all because of those "left wing union people", or "those foreign nurses, who are inferior, don't understand our language or culture, and drive down our salaries". Of course none of this is true, but if you read the posts on these message boards you realize that a lot of nurses are buying into it. Finally I work in the private sector, the salaries and benefits in Union Hospitals are far better (it's no coincidence that the best conditions are in the State with the strongest Union), and if you think you can out negotiate an HR rep, or recruiter, in salary and benefit negotiations your delusional.
    Thanks
    Tony (an inferior foreign nurse)
  12. by   Xbox Live Addict
    Quote from SFCardiacRN
    It will hardly fix a shortage. It may help a hospitals bottom line in the short run but will backfire later on. It's something seen in "right to work" states where unions are weak.
    Thank you! I live in Oklahoma, a right-to-work state with one of the worst pay scales in the US. It also has one of the worst nursing shortages in the US. Nurses here just wander from facility to facility. There's no financial or personal incentive here to stay in one place. Until the nurses, and the general population of Oklahoma wake up, we will never be paid our worth and will continue to suffer a poor standard of living. Unfortunately, with no unions, it's easier to just move to another state than to try to fight the system in Oklahoma.
  13. by   SFCardiacRN
    Tony (an inferior foreign nurse)
    Well said Tony. And for anyone out there that thinks otherwise...Immigrants are what has made our country strong and they have been good for nursing too!

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