Jobs for New Grads - The Big Lie? - page 3

by chuckster 9,781 Views | 58 Comments

a recent article available in medscape is one of an increasing number of pieces that are finally painting a realistic picture of the nursing job market in the us. link here: note that registration (free) may be required... Read More


  1. 3
    Quote from fiveofpeep
    At the end of the day, they are just a business trying to make money.
    When they are tax-payer supported public institutions, that's different.
  2. 1
    Quote from Multicollinearity
    I strongly believe nursing schools need to reduce their enrollment in some geographic areas. The state I'm from has more than doubled its total prelicensure enrollment in the last 5 years. It was done to meet the predicted shortage that did not materialize. Now it's the opposite - many new grads unable to get jobs. I had to leave that area to get a job as a new grad.

    I can imagine why the nursing schools have not cut enrollment. It's devastating to give up hard-won gains in their infrastructure and funding, and who can bear to lay off a colleague? Thing is, nursing instructors are multipliers, creating too many new nurses. I keep reading articles that say the nursing shortage will re-materialize as baby boomers start retiring. How many years do we go, believing this, despite the numbers of unemployed new grads?

    I've yet to see or hear of a single nursing program reduce its enrollment. For the public programs, these are wasted tax dollars. At what point will nursing programs reduce their enrollment? In many areas where there's a glut of unemployed new grads, I just believe it's some kind of moral error committed by the colleges and universities.
    How do you think the schools get their money? They will continue to pack the nursing programs. They don't care what happens after you give them your money,they are only interested in the money. Not in the nursing job shortage.
    lindarn likes this.
  3. 5
    Quote from Merlyn
    How do you think the schools get their money? They will continue to pack the nursing programs. They don't care what happens after you give them your money,they are only interested in the money. Not in the nursing job shortage.
    My point is when institutions are tax-payer funded, eventually there needs to be a response to the glut of unemployed new grads. Maybe it's time for boards of nursing to communicate to state legislatures that allocate funding for special programs (like public nursing programs) that new graduates cannot get jobs.

    About ten years ago, stakeholders in the state I'm from gathered evidence on the impending nursing shortage and went to the legislature, asking for money to double prelicensure enrollment. They got it. An elaborate plan was put into place to increase enrollment across the state. RN enrollment actually doubled. Then the job market totally changed, and now the BON keeps publishing studies about the glut of unemployed new grads and pending crisis of undeveloped new nurses.

    For public nursing programs, at what point are hard-won gains in funding and enrollment reversed? How many years to we go spending money on a nursing shortage we no longer see? The casualties are the new grads. That's my point. The private programs will do what ever they want as long as they have new faces showing up.

    I do actually believe many nursing instructors care if their students cannot get jobs after graduation. But does their leadership care enough to put colleagues out of jobs? Who is steering the profession?
    lindarn, lmhendersonrn, netglow, and 2 others like this.
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    Why do nursing schools need to limit their enrollment? I have never heard of universities not allowing people to get a degree in history, philosophy or education because the market for jobs was tough. I'm going to nursing school because I want to be a nurse, not because I want a guaranteed job. Universities and nursing schools should enroll as many people as are qualified to go through the program and they have the staff to handle, just as they do for engineering, pre-med, pre-law, history and all the other possible college majors. Then everyone competes for jobs, just like all the other professions.

    Our instructors told us honestly that the market is tough, and if you want a job right out of school you may have to move, accept a position in a type of facility you didn't plan on, or compete for internships and residency programs.
  5. 7
    Quote from wifetoAndy
    Why do nursing schools need to limit their enrollment? I have never heard of universities not allowing people to get a degree in history, philosophy or education because the market for jobs was tough. I'm going to nursing school because I want to be a nurse, not because I want a guaranteed job. Universities and nursing schools should enroll as many people as are qualified to go through the program and they have the staff to handle, just as they do for engineering, pre-med, pre-law, history and all the other possible college majors. Then everyone competes for jobs, just like all the other professions.

    Our instructors told us honestly that the market is tough, and if you want a job right out of school you may have to move, accept a position in a type of facility you didn't plan on, or compete for internships and residency programs.
    There are some differences. Nursing is different than a history major (for example) because nursing takes up clinical space in hospitals and because of the public need. Also, it costs a lot more to educate an RN at a state-supported university than it does to produce a history major due to clinical expenses and faculty ratios.

    My point was that many state legislatures have passed legislation in past years increasing funding to increase nursing school enrollment. This was done to protect the public from a critical nursing shortage that never fully materialized. So if tax dollars are being spent to ramp up nursing school enrollment for a nursing shortage that doesn't exist - that's an issue for legislators and tax payers to consider. One interesting point to note - MDs have carefully controlled medical school enrollment and have not allowed themselves to be in a glut.
    Nurse Leigh, lindarn, lmhendersonrn, and 4 others like this.
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    The differences are as multcollinearty stated, as well as the fact that nursing is thought of in many people's minds like police officers, doctors, and paramedic/fire professionals. They (or we) are a category that serves the public good in many people's minds, even though our healthcare system is an incomprehensible amalgam of public/private funding.

    Once a hard fought battle for funding is won, it's just as hard to reverse. Another dream come true would be if all the people who continue to beat the shortage drum when they must know the game has changed drastically would spend their time and energy trying to mitigate what will certainly be a problem for years to come because the pipelines are primed to produce as many nurses as possible and there isn't enough time for the economy to recover plus doubtful anyone will want to turn down the existing spigot. (meaning the legislatures and professional lobbying activist nursing groups like the AACN.)

    My own feeling is that if it's in the interest of the public good to fill shortages then it's in the public good to make sure all these brand new nurses aren't having all their hard fought talent and education go to waste. They should at least in my opinion pay for new grad residencies as that "first year" hurdle is so difficult to overcome - you can double that if it's been a year or more since you graduated and you haven't secured your first job.

    They should modify the payment schedule for student loans for nursing school - not "never" pay back but take the pressure off a little as the 9 mo after graduation start time isn't contingent on full-time employment in nursing as far as I know.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Jan 16, '12
    lindarn, Esme12, lmhendersonrn, and 4 others like this.
  7. 2
    Am going to roll many responses into one post.

    While one has long advocated creating nursing residencies along the lines of what is offered for post grad physicans, the more one thinks about it closely the scheme would be difficult to implement and cost dear.

    There are far to many nursing grads every six or twelve months to be absorbed by most local hospitals. Then there would be the question of wages/benefits for "probie" nurses and whom should cover them in all or part. Who is going to set the level? What is to keep a hospital from hiring a bunch of "newbie" nurses at below current scale then chucking them out after a year to start all over again. Will hospitals be happy with a portion of their nursing service always rotating in and out every year? While post grads are paid wages they also perform billable services; nurses (bedside) do not thus are strictly a cost so hospitals may not welcome other "mouths to feed" without clear benefits to them upto and including their cost being borne for the most part by someone else (see above).

    As for shutting down schools of nursing, been there and done that from about the 1970's through 1980' when enrollments plummented. So what happened? When the "nursing shortage" bells began ringing (yes I know but we're not on that right now, *LOL*) there weren't enough seats to train new nurses. Shutting down a program is the easy part, starting one up is difficult and expensive. Being as all that may, personally think there will be a gradual culling of the herd but will come as with most things from hospitals. If the "BSN preferred/only" trend becomes the norm in some areas, along with facilites being very picky about whom they hire there are bound to be enough unemployed or employable nurses from certain programs to cause their demise.

    Finally one must say while everyone seems keen to land a hospital gig (understandable) the push from federal government and other sources is towards less in hospital care and more home/community based service. From prevention to delivery more and more healthcare is going to be taking place in future away from hospitals. This could be LTC,ACS,home and or any other setting . Once you go down that road it equates to less need for hospital beds aside from various levels of acute care and a few other services. For anyone considering entering the profession and or those already in this means future employment choices may be limited.
    jtmarcy12 and Esme12 like this.
  8. 0
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    What is to keep a hospital from hiring a bunch of "newbie" nurses at below current scale then chucking them out after a year to start all over again.
    It's extremely expensive.
  9. 2
    Quote from fiveofpeep
    It's extremely expensive.
    True dat!

    But one was thinking more if some sort of scheme were put into place where funding for such nurses did not come out of the hospital's purse.
    Esme12 and fiveofpeep like this.
  10. 0
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Am going to roll many responses into one post.

    While one has long advocated creating nursing residencies along the lines of what is offered for post grad physicans, the more one thinks about it closely the scheme would be difficult to implement and cost dear.

    There are far to many nursing grads every six or twelve months to be absorbed by most local hospitals. Then there would be the question of wages/benefits for "probie" nurses and whom should cover them in all or part. Who is going to set the level? What is to keep a hospital from hiring a bunch of "newbie" nurses at below current scale then chucking them out after a year to start all over again.
    It would be necessary to have more hospital/school interface than we have currently and would most definitely mean that (like medical residencies) there would need to be "teaching hospitals" for nurses and hiring a new grad wouldn't necessarily mean a guaranteed job at that place - nor would it mean the full RN wage for that period of time. The idea would be that they would then have a year of recent hospital experience - greatly increasing their desirability to hospitals closer to home.

    Lord knows the government (both federal and state) wastes money on enough things already. I'm anything but a "tax and spend" person but giving students a leg up has been one of the better things our taxpayer dollars have gone to imo. We generally help out people who are casualties of unforeseen economic factors as well.

    If - as you say they "cull the herd" and hospitals hire based on BSN vs not we'll need to drastically overhaul the system anyway unless we're willing to leave current ASN students in the lurch and have every community college based program wither up and die. If that were to happen we'd be back to fewer seats and shut a whole lot of potentially great nurses out due to the increased cost of living away from home and part-time options for parents or second-career students. Are there currently enough bridges between 2 year and 4 year colleges that a current student can seamlessly move to a BSN program?

    All of these ideas are nothing but brainstorming on my part but that plus increasing public awareness of the truth (otherwise no "New Nurse Bill" would have a snowball's chance in hell of being passed). We have to start somewhere!
    Last edit by nursel56 on Jan 17, '12


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