Is Healthcare Still a Promising Field? - page 3

I found the following article on USNews when I was checking out a link about PTs being one of the top ten careers in 2009. While perusing through this site, I've read several posts commenting how new... Read More

  1. Visit  LandauGuy profile page
    0
    Quote from eriksoln
    So many political fanatics get so bent out of shape when you dont agree with their interpretations. Thousands of people, all hearing the same speech, all with the same info available to them and each and every single one has a completely different take on the issue.
    You dont seem to really 'get it'. The Office of Congressional Research works DIRECTLY FOR CONGRESS. They aren't some random third party. They work for and report directly to congress members. Their very mandate IS interpretation of law, legal issues resulting from laws, moral/ethical concerns, what services or other laws will be affected by enacting a law, etc.

    When that 1000 page bill goes to congress members, the CRS are the people that condense it down into a readable form for them to actually be able to understand.

    http://www.loc.gov/crsinfo/index.html
  2. Visit  talaxandra profile page
    3
    Could we please bring this back to the point of the OP? There are plenty of threads debating US health care reform and this isn't one of them. Thank you.
  3. Visit  kittykatty profile page
    0
    Quote from LandauGuy
    You dont seem to really 'get it'. The Office of Congressional Research works DIRECTLY FOR CONGRESS. They aren't some random third party. They work for and report directly to congress members. Their very mandate IS interpretation of law, legal issues resulting from laws, moral/ethical concerns, what services or other laws will be affected by enacting a law, etc.

    When that 1000 page bill goes to congress members, the CRS are the people that condense it down into a readable form for them to actually be able to understand.

    http://www.loc.gov/crsinfo/index.html
    Landau You should not waste your breath--some people don't want to get it--thanks for all of your valuable info--all I can say is that when the independent researchers (CRS) that you hire come back and tell you that it will not work you should have enough sense to listen to them. Taking someone (Obama or Congress) at face value when it involves completely revamping a system that is responsible for 1/6th of our economy strikes me as being irresponsible and dangerous--Like Congress has never lied before? Really!!

    Someone else said, "You clearly also have no idea how legislation is written. Yes, the bill does not explicitly say that "illegal aliens won't get coverage" or that they won't have access to the public option (which can be quite easily managed). But that doesn't mean that they are going to get access."

    Are you kidding me? The only way to exclude illegals from coverage is to explicitly state it in the legislation. As a matter of fact, in Washington if it is not explicitly stated then it is assumed that it is not prohibited.
  4. Visit  Agrippa profile page
    2
    Quote from LandauGuy
    The congressional research service is an arm of the library of congress and impartial. You should actually know what you're talking about before you comment, because right now, you very much do not.

    Perhaps it was also the 'right wingnuts' who were behind the congressional budget office's assessment that health care done the Obama way would do nothing but drag us deeper into debt, right? Oh wait, no it wasn't because thats an impartial office as well.

    So: The congressional budget office says it'll drive us trillions deeper into debt, and the congressional research service says illegals will get care, and you doubt that? LOL. These people work directly for congress in an official capacity and issue these very reports directly to members of congress.

    I give facts (with links) while you sit and insult with nothing but what you "believe" to be true backing your argument. You should work hard to understand the players and details before you take people at their word.

    The dems in the Ways and Means committee had no reason to defeat the Heller Amendment along strict party lines unless they ABSOLUTELY wanted illegals to get care.

    I never said that the LOC was incorrect. I said that your far fetched interpretation of these bills - that illegals will get free healthcare - is incorrect. I've actually worked for congress and used services such as the CRS. No one, not the LOC, the CRS, or any other congressional no partisan office has published anything that confirms that in any of the healthcare reform bills will "illegals get free healthcare". Your silly interpretation that just because the bill doesn't specifically spell out every entity that won't be covered into this bill as an affirmation of guaranteed free healthcare for illegals is mistaken at best and propaganda at worst. I guarantee that none of the healthcare bills will have any language that specifically states that bunnies or unicorns won't be covered. That doesn't mean that Obama wants to give healthcare to mythical creatures. This is just another example of how far republicans will go to distort facts so they can railroad healthcare reform. The loser is the American People.
    lurain and Ruthfarmer like this.
  5. Visit  Agrippa profile page
    0
    Quote from LandauGuy

    Lets start with the so called killer clause that will keep illegals from getting care:
    "H.R. 3200: Sec 246 ” NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS: Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for
    affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

    reads nicely...EXCEPT for the absolute FACT that the congressional research service says it wont stop illegals from getting care through the Health Insurance Exchange starting in 2013.

    Who is the congressional research service? :
    The congressional research service is an arm of the library of congress. They research issues for members of congress regarding legaility, 'what if' scenarios, social and ethical concerns, etc. They are a massive group of people who only do think tank style stuff for congress.
    Learn about them here: http://www.loc.gov/crsinfo/
    Usually their work isn't known to the public, but occasionally someone will leak one of their reports to make a point to the public, such as the one regarding illegals and health care:
    You can get the report here:
    http://media.sfexaminer.com/documents/noncitizens.pdf
    1. CRS documents are readily available to the public.

    2. This is one of many reports from the CRS on one of FIVE bills in Congress. There's yet to be one close to reality yet until it reaches conference committee - if Republican's don't get their way that is and railroad all of them.

    So sets take a look at what it actually says, not just what you say it says. This is all from the CRS report that you've provided and somehow interpreted as proof that Obama wants to give all illegals free healthcare.

    H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in
    the Exchange—whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States
    temporarily or permanently. Nonetheless, only aliens who could be classified as resident aliens
    would be required under the bill to have health insurance.
    Hardly an act that can be understood by anyone reasonable as Obama taking steps to give illegals free healthcare.

    In 2013, under H.R. 3200, some individuals would be eligible for premium credits (i.e., subsidies
    based on income) toward their required purchase of health insurance. To be eligible for the
    premium credits under H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a state in the United
    States, excluding most nonimmigrants (i.e., those in the United States for a specific purpose and a
    specific period of time). The exceptions for nonimmigrants who could obtain premium credits
    under H.R. 3200 would be trafficking victims, crime victims, fiances of U.S. citizens, and those
    who have had applications for legal permanent residence (LPR) status pending for three years. It
    is expected that almost all aliens in these excepted nonimmigrant categories will become LPRs
    (i.e., immigrants) and remain in the United States permanently. Furthermore, unauthorized aliens
    would be barred from receiving the premium credit
    .
    Ok....

    Noncitizens are treated differently in several provisions of the bill. For example, H.R. 3200 would
    mandate that as of 2013, resident aliens (as defined in the Internal Revenue Code and discussed
    below) have health insurance. However, not all resident aliens would qualify for the credits (i.e.,
    subsidies based on income) that would be created under the bill toward their required purchase of
    health insurance, because eligibility for the credits is based on immigration status (as defined
    under the Immigration and Nationality Act) not on status as a resident alien, as defined under the
    tax code.
    To be eligible for the credits under 242 of H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a
    state in the United States, but generally not in the United States temporarily (i.e.,
    nonimmigrants)
    .29
    Some have expressed concerns that since H.R. 3200 does not contain a mechanism to verify
    immigration status, the prohibitions on certain noncitizens (e.g, nonimmigrants and unauthorizedaliens) receiving the credits may not be enforced. However, others note that under 142(a)(3) of
    the bill, it is the responsibility of the Health Choices Commissioner (Commissioner) to administer
    the “individual affordability credits under subtitle C of title II, including determination of
    eligibility for such credits.” Thus, it appears, absent of a provision in the bill specifying the
    verification procedure, that the Commissioner would be responsible for determining a mechanism
    to verify the eligibility of noncitizens for the credits.33
    Again, hardly an affirmative act to give free insurance to all illegals.

    Please, stop trying to feed such trash here...you will get called out.
    Last edit by Agrippa on Sep 26, '09
  6. Visit  Agrippa profile page
    0
    Quote from kittykatty

    Someone else said, "You clearly also have no idea how legislation is written. Yes, the bill does not explicitly say that "illegal aliens won't get coverage" or that they won't have access to the public option (which can be quite easily managed). But that doesn't mean that they are going to get access."

    Are you kidding me? The only way to exclude illegals from coverage is to explicitly state it in the legislation. As a matter of fact, in Washington if it is not explicitly stated then it is assumed that it is not prohibited.
    Let me try again, although I don't think it will work...

    So by your logic, you want the bill to explicitly spell out every sentient being that won't be covered in healthcare reform, because to do otherwise, would mean to you the explicit inclusion of them?

    Ok lets start now and we can forward this to your congressman/woman. We want the bill to explicitly say that the following will not be covered under reform: unicorns, hobbits, ligers, cats, parrots, people on holiday here, cavemen...

    You do the rest and make sure you list them all, or that means that you want them to be covered!
  7. Visit  LandauGuy profile page
    0
    Quote from Agrippa
    I never said that the LOC was incorrect. I said that your far fetched interpretation of these bills - that illegals will get free healthcare - is incorrect. I've actually worked for congress and used services such as the CRS. No one, not the LOC, the CRS, or any other congressional no partisan office has published anything that confirms that in any of the healthcare reform bills will "illegals get free healthcare". Your silly interpretation that just because the bill doesn't specifically spell out every entity that won't be covered into this bill as an affirmation of guaranteed free healthcare for illegals is mistaken at best and propaganda at worst. I guarantee that none of the healthcare bills will have any language that specifically states that bunnies or unicorns won't be covered. That doesn't mean that Obama wants to give healthcare to mythical creatures. This is just another example of how far republicans will go to distort facts so they can railroad healthcare reform. The loser is the American People.
    You're insane. The CRS specifically states that illegals WILL get care. This is not "my" interpretation, stop trying to distort the facts. The CRS works for congress, and the CRS stated they will. Its pretty damn simple.

    If democrats didn't WANT illegals covered, they would not have defeated the Heller Amendment in the ways and means committee. Please tell me WHY they did so, since Heller specifically spelled out a way to keep them from getting care.

    I provided facts with backing and you have provided nothing but "what you feel". You have no argument.
  8. Visit  Agrippa profile page
    0
    Quote from LandauGuy
    You're insane. The CRS specifically states that illegals WILL get care. This is not "my" interpretation, stop trying to distort the facts. The CRS works for congress, and the CRS stated they will. Its pretty damn simple.

    If democrats didn't WANT illegals covered, they would not have defeated the Heller Amendment in the ways and means committee.

    I provided facts with backing and you have provided nothing but "what you feel". You have no argument.
    I've looked at your link. I've looked at your CRS report. I've quoted from your "facts" and they've proven the opposite of your interpretation. So stop resorting to personal attacks. Show me.
  9. Visit  LandauGuy profile page
    0
    Quote from Agrippa
    I've looked at your link. I've looked at your CRS report. I've quoted from your "facts" and they've proven the opposite of your interpretation. So stop resorting to personal attacks. Show me.
    No, they have not. Do you understand anything about the Health care exchange? Do you understand the tax credits that will be given to illegals upon meeting the 'substantial presence test'? Do you understand anything about 'resident for tax purposes'?

    Apparently you DO NOT.

    The American people are going to end up paying for illegals in the Health Care Exchange with tax credits because these illegals will meet the substantial presence test (essentially a 'test' of living in the US). These people will be considered 'resident for tax purposes'.

    Its just a loophole ass backwards way of getting there, but its still the American public paying for illegals to get care.

    Again: If the democrats did not want illegals to get care, they would not have defeated the Heller amendment, which would have made it very difficult for illegals to get care. How is this a hard thing to understand?

    -----------------------------DIRECTLY FROM THE REPORT----------------

    Under H.R. 3200, all legal permanent residents (LPRs),23 nonimmigrants, and unauthorized aliens
    who meet the substantial presence test (defined above) would be required to obtain health
    insurance.24 Noncitizens meeting the definition of nonresident aliens (e.g., temporary visitors,
    temporary workers in the United States for less than 183 days in the year) would not be required
    to obtain health insurance. Notably, the IRC does not contain special rules for individuals who are
    in the United States without authorization (i.e., illegal or unauthorized aliens). Instead, the IRC
    treats these individuals in the same manner as other foreign nationals—an unauthorized
    individual who has been in the United States long enough to qualify under the substantial
    presence test is classified as a resident alien; otherwise, the individual is classified as a
    nonresident alien.25 Thus, it would appear that unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial
    presence test would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance.
    Exchange
    Under H.R. 3200, a “Health Insurance Exchange” would begin operation in 2013 and would offer
    private plans alongside a public option. The Exchange would not be an insurer; it would provide
    eligible individuals and small businesses with access to insurers’ plans, including the public
    option, in a comparable way. Individuals would only be eligible to enroll in an Exchange plan if
    they were not enrolled in other acceptable coverage (for example, from an employer, Medicare
    and generally Medicaid).26 H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether
    legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in
    the Exchange.27 However, as discussed above, H.R. 3200 would only mandate that resident aliens
    would be required to have health insurance.
  10. Visit  Agrippa profile page
    0
    I'm still waiting for you to show my on any of the bills where it says Illegals will be guaranteed healthcare coverage. Whenever you're ready.
  11. Visit  LandauGuy profile page
    0
    Quote from Agrippa
    I'm still waiting for you to show my on any of the bills where it says Illegals will be guaranteed healthcare coverage. Whenever you're ready.
    You should learn to read then, as I just spelled it out for you rather plainly.

    Under H.R. 3200, all legal permanent residents (LPRs),23 nonimmigrants, and unauthorized aliens who meet the substantial presence test (defined above) would be required to obtain health insurance.
    *
    an unauthorized individual who has been in the United States long enough to qualify under the substantial presence test is classified as a resident alien

    You lost, it's that simple. Get over it.
  12. Visit  kittykatty profile page
    2
    Quote from Agrippa
    Let me try again, although I don't think it will work...

    So by your logic, you want the bill to explicitly spell out every sentient being that won't be covered in healthcare reform, because to do otherwise, would mean to you the explicit inclusion of them?

    Ok lets start now and we can forward this to your congressman/woman. We want the bill to explicitly say that the following will not be covered under reform: unicorns, hobbits, ligers, cats, parrots, people on holiday here, cavemen...

    You do the rest and make sure you list them all, or that means that you want them to be covered!
    Why such a snotty attitude? This is supposed to be a forum for exchange of ideas and sometimes you will not agree to everything you read or hear--that should not be an excuse to act uncivil. Now back to your point. I don't care if you put unicorns in the bill as long as you explicitly say that ILLEGALS will not get healthcare--it is as simple as that. I want to see it in writing. I'll give you an example of how I think healthcare should be as far as anyone that is not a citizen of this country.
    Right now if I went to Austria and decided to stay past 90 days I could as long as I would have proof of healthcare insurance on day 91. If I can't prove that I have bought healthcare then I will be deported on day 91. No maybes, no it may or may not be their law--it is a fact. You see, a long time ago Austrians realized that if they didn't do something about illegals crossing their borders for their quality healthcare they would soon be bankrupt. I love this idea--no insurance after 90 days and you are out of here!!Works for me
    2bgr8nurse and RN <>< like this.
  13. Visit  LandauGuy profile page
    0
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ialysis09.html

    http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/20...liens-dialysis

    Just an example of the tab that Americans are already picking up for illegals in this country.

    Health care stops being a promising field to me when we spend my hard earned money displacing Americans in line for care with illegals. This will only get worse if illegals get free care. Does anyone here honestly think the flow of immigrants will do anything but increase once free care is absolutely assured?


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