Hospitals turn to LPN's to fill staffing shortages - page 3

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  1. by   ebowie
    It sounds like this Doctor doesn't know enough so he/she depends on the nursing staff to do his/her job. Even though Iam a lpn team player sametimes I want ask for some of these Doctor's and RN's pay check for my resoruces.
  2. by   occRN9
    Lindarm is right in this regard. I personally do not have anything against lower educational levels BUT in order to compete WE must raise the bar. As was pointed out Pharmacists have done it, PT has done it and we will always be undervalued as long as we allow ourselves to be. I was an ADN and did not realize how much I did NOT KNOW until I went back to school. I work with autoworkers who make 10 dollars more an hour than RNs with NO EDUCATION and better benefits. People should be grandfathered in and acheive the classes needed to further their education and they should want to learn more to take better care of their patients. It is not an us against them issue it is a what is best for the ENTIRE group of NURSES and our PATIENTS. The more you know the better NURSE you are and alot does come with experience but alot comes with Higher Learning. You don't see Drs going to 2 years of school and specializing
  3. by   withasmilelpn
    I do think it all comes down to money. I don't think many facilities really care what your qualifications are, period. Nurses are warm bodies that provide a 'service' for their 'customers', bottom line. I think the previous trend towards all RN hospitals comes down to avoiding lawsuits. There was a lot of publicity about some studies that patient outcomes fared better with more RNs in acute care and more and more patients are aware of that. They really don't seem to know how to utilize LPNs effectively or even their RNs - thus the trend of cutting out support staff and increasing patient loads. Even LTC where most LPNs are the facilities are clueless about our scope. Example LPNs can give TPN if there is an RN in the building !?! That being said, I would love the opportunity to work med/surg again, it's just LTC pays more. Overall, I think if the hospitals could, they would do away with nurses all together and use CNAs if they could!
  4. by   wooh
    Hospital M/S dept I used to work at ran off experienced RNs, made sure to have enough new grad RNs to work charge (so they could say there was an RN on the floor) and filled all the other spots with LPNS, preferably new grads. After all, new grad LPNs are LOTS cheaper than experienced RNs. If someone screwed up due to inexperience, they got fired (so they could show on paper that they did something about the problem) then hired another new grad LPN only too happy to get a non-LTC job. It's all about money, hospitals are going to do whatever is cheapest. RNs with 4-5 patients each are a lot more expensive than LPNs with 8-15 each. Which way you think the hospitals are going to lean?
  5. by   msdobson
    Quote from withasmilelpn
    I do think it all comes down to money.

    Then you are not living in the real world.

    EVERYTHING comes down to money. Health Care in the U.S. (unlike countries like Canada and Austalia) are run by large corporations as BUSINESSES.

    Think again.
  6. by   pagandeva2000
    Quote from occRN9
    Lindarm is right in this regard. I personally do not have anything against lower educational levels BUT in order to compete WE must raise the bar. As was pointed out Pharmacists have done it, PT has done it and we will always be undervalued as long as we allow ourselves to be. I was an ADN and did not realize how much I did NOT KNOW until I went back to school. I work with autoworkers who make 10 dollars more an hour than RNs with NO EDUCATION and better benefits. People should be grandfathered in and acheive the classes needed to further their education and they should want to learn more to take better care of their patients. It is not an us against them issue it is a what is best for the ENTIRE group of NURSES and our PATIENTS. The more you know the better NURSE you are and alot does come with experience but alot comes with Higher Learning. You don't see Drs going to 2 years of school and specializing

    While I can respect what you are saying, I want to ask where does this leave the LPN that wishes to re-enter school to become an RN and is encountering difficulty from both, the job as well as entering into an RN program that has a waiting list for 2-5 years? And, where should that place LPNs that are currently working? Is the message saying to leave us in the dust? Anyone can realize that we learn how much we really didn't know before we went for higher education...I realized that when I transitioned from being a CNA to an LPN. And, yes, I do wish to learn how to better care for patients, thus, this is why I take continuing education classes in order to do so. When you say the ENITIRE group of NURSES, does this include LPNs or is this left only for RNs? There is a role for everyone in patient care.

    I am an LPN that does not wish to become an RN, mainly because outside of the money, I see more aggreviation and stupid politics than a caring profession. This does not mean that LPNs don't deserve respect or acknowledgement for what he/she contributes to patient care.

    I, personally, am not looking to replace or compete with the RNs. In fact, I believe that we should differentiate ourselves from them...not being better or worse than them, but, that our role is, in fact, different from the RN and it should be shown and demonstrated at all times. No matter what the reasons were that the LPN role was created, it did allow opportunities for people to make a respectable vocation or career as well as have a chance to increase what they can do for the clients as well as their communities. I am not trying to say these things to challenge your post or any RN, just trying to see where the problem lies where this subject always leads to a flame war. There must be something I am missing.
  7. by   SuesquatchRN
    For goodness sakes, now that pharmacy requires a doctorate we have a bazillion pharm techs doing a great deal of pharmacy work under pharmacist supervision.

    As to PT - that law is certainly not evident in NYS. My main PT guy was told not to bother with the doctorate, from which he's thee credits away, and we have three CNA's who are also certified to do - guess what - PT under his supervision. Just like LPNs and RNs. Laws requiring more education don't create more money. They simply create opportunities to find legal ways to evade trying to fulfill the impossible.
  8. by   msdobson
    Quote from lindarn
    Am I the only one who is able to connect the dots?
    Apparently.

    Quote from lindarn
    Suzanne Gordon, in the last chapter of her book, also concluded that nurses need to go to a BSN as entry into practice. For Gods sake, PHYSICAL THERAPY ASSISTANTS HAVE A TWO YEAR ASSOCIATES DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. And LPNs have one year post HS education? Get Real, folks. No one is saying that they do not do a good job, only that this is the 21st Century, and the public deserves better. Health care had gotten far too complex to compress it into one or two years.
    Right. So what you're saying is that having a degree makes you a better, more caring and, of course, MORE INTELLIGENT nurse.

    This degree you speak of also gives you more common sense, the ability to make snap decisions instantly and with absolute confidence, and allows for more informed judgments in any given scenario that might be expected of these "lesser people."

    Please paint the picture for me, because I can't see how sitting in a classroom studying text magically does this for me.

    BTW, I HAVE a four-year degree (plus some...), and I can't see how it has made me a MORE intelligent, sharper individual than I was before I entered the program.

    I have more KNOWLEDGE of the subject I studied, but the program failed to impart any magical powers of observation, motivation or wisdom. Nor did it give me the ability to act in any given situation that I did not already possess.

    Quote from lindarn
    The public may think that we are wonderful, and that is more because of the vast amount of care they receive from us for the HS dropout wages that we accept as professional compensation.
    $25 an hour, plus differential and overtime pay is HARDLY a high school drop-out wage.

    Quote from lindarn
    Physical Therapists, who work in hospitals here in low pay Spokane, are earning $100,000 a year. Nurses here make in the mid to high 40's. What is wrong with this picture? Nothing you say? PTs have a Doctorate as Entry into Practice? To walk grandma in the hallways?
    I would think those same Physical Therapists would take a different view of your description of their profession, but I suppose that would be a different thread. However, following your responses, YOU seem to be more upset over the wages YOU accepted as a nurse than any problems the uses of LPNs might have on the stability of hospital patient care. To put a point on it, YOU are simply using the forums to WHINE.

    Quote from lindarn
    As I have stated, nurses should go to a BSN as entry into practice, with full "grandfathering" in of all Diploma grads, and ADNs. No one needs to earn a BSN in order to continue to practice. LPNs should go to a two year technical degree of an Associates Degree, again, with grandfathering in of all present LPN/LVNs. Hospitals can provide on site classes to nurses, to make it as easy as possible to attain the degree, if that is what they desire. They did it for pharmacists, when they went to a Doctorate as entry into practice.
    And where would your argument -

    "And LPNs have one year post HS education? Get Real, folks. No one is saying that they do not do a good job, only that this is the 21st Century, and the public deserves better."

    --be when you "grandfathered" all these LPNs, Diploma Grads and ADNs? Really...do you think anyone believed you when you threw in that weak qualifier?

    Lets take that qualifier OUT and look at that sentiment again, shall we?

    "And LPNs have one year post HS education? Get Real, folks. This is the 21st Century, and the public deserves better."

    There. Now THAT, I believe, is your TRUE feeling. Without the qualifier.

    The rest of your out-of-control ranting don't deserve a response, so I will withhold addressing each point.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington[/quote]



    Mike, SIC, OF, THE, BS
  9. by   BKRN
    Mike, SIC, OF, THE, BS [/quote]


    LOVE IT!
  10. by   Tweety
    Quote from txspadequeen921
    don't sugar coat this mess right here. out of 471 of your post i bet i could site at least 400 post that deal with how lvn's and adn's are incompetent and have no place in the nursing world.
    linda did defend herself, but one thing i can say in her debates over the years is she has never said anyone less than a bsn degree was "incompetent" in what they are doing.

    it is very difficult to make an agrument that statement that "the minimum standard of nursing care should be provided by professional nurses with a baccalaureate degree" without stepping on toes and someone taking it in a defensively and insulting. in fact if i stated that simple statement alone in a thread, watch the flames fly. in fact it's relatively impossible not to have flames. one interprets that statement and shoots back "how dare you think i'm not a professional, how dare you say i'm incompetent". but the fact is you can't argue your case without someone interpreting it all sorts of ways such as "incompetent, belittling, etc.".

    sometimes i got to give linda her props for sticking to her guns, whether i like it or not.
    Last edit by Tweety on May 19, '07
  11. by   Tweety
    Quote from Dalzac
    I hate this subject and it always turns into a nasty flame fight. is there anyway we can close this?

    Thanks,
    Dalzac LPN
    30years Critical care and ER and that will get me any job I want.
    Why should we bother? It will only pop up again and again later. As long as we stick to the topic and be respectful that there are opinions on many sides, don't flame the poster for not having the same opinion as you by debating the topic not the poster, it should be o.k.
    Last edit by Tweety on May 19, '07
  12. by   Tweety
    Quote from msdobson
    Then you are not living in the real world.

    EVERYTHING comes down to money. Health Care in the U.S. (unlike countries like Canada and Austalia) are run by large corporations as BUSINESSES.

    Think again.
    I'm not understanding this retort. The poster says it all comes down to money.
  13. by   Bluehair
    Wow. When I first posted this link I thought it would be an encouragement to LPN's that hospital jobs do not appear to be going away. I have worked with many fabulous, professional LPN's and in no way wanted to start a flame war over the topic. Personally I viewed this approach to be a way to provide patients care and relieve staffing shortages. Fewer staffing shortages could give a little breathing room and in some markets make your job a lot more enjoyable to go to. I had never worked with anyone who looked down on anyone who is an LPN, ADN, etc. I work with a full gammit (sp) of initials and everyone just seems to recognize we are all in a different place in our nursing career. Some will add initials/change initials, some won't, but we all try to make sure the patient gets good care.
    Who needs the stress of all this, really?

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