Foreign nurses face the axe in Britain - page 6

london: new rules designed to safeguard jobs for british trainee nurses could mean that thousands of foreign nurses already employed here are forced out of work. with as many as 80 per cent of... Read More

  1. by   Mdimi
    Quote from madwife2002
    foreign nurses would do per diam at other hospitals and then phone in sick for their own floor, which meant that they got paid for working in two places at the same time.
    i even knew one nurse who worked the night shift and then phoned in sick to her own floor for the morning shift-i know this because i was the person whom she phoned in sick to.
    for the record, i would like to challenge the biased view above. if a "foreign" nurse phoned you, would it be fair to make a general statement about all "foreign" nurses and correlate them to the abuse of sick leave?

    using facts and statistics, nhs nurses (ward staff) take more sick days per year than most other public sector workers. survey by the healthcare commission, (2005) showed on average nhs staff have 16.8 days in every 12 months. this compares with 11.3 days a year across seven other public sector groups, including police and teachers.

    survey done by nhs information centre (2006) found that nhs employees take an average of 12 sick days off a year. confederation of british industry (cbi, 2006) suggest the average absenteeism rate in the private sector is six days a year.

    health service staff in the north east and north west england were most likely to take sick days. a total of 5.3% of working time was lost to sickness absence in the north east, compared with 4.1% in london and the south east.

    if you look in the uk nursing staff make-up, you will find that most overseas nurses work in the the south (greater london) they make up to a quarter of nurses in london. (fewer sick days than the north)

    higher proportion of overseas nurses work in the private sector (again fewer sick days)

    a private agency moved its headquarters out of the uk recently, and one of the reasons was that the uk workers were more likely to call in sick, and this was not good for the business.

    madwife2002 where do you get your data from? is it based on the "foreign" nurse who called in sick? well, from the facts above, we can conclude that overseas nurses (which you call "foreign") are not the culprits of "throw-a-sickie" culture.

    with the above data i am not trying to say that native uk nurses are lazy, but we should not use our personal prejudices and unfound biases to demonise and indeed discriminate against overseas nurses or british nurses. they are all qualified and committed to do their work against all odds.

    the nhs and the government have money crisis and the overseas nurses in the uk were used as a scapegoat.

    (sorry for a long post)
    Last edit by Mdimi on Oct 5, '06
  2. by   max1x
    Quote from suzanne4
    Moderators jump in when the posts are no longer is responding to the original thread. The topic was UK nursing, not nurses from third world countries coming to the US.

    There are already many threads on that topic, if you would take the time to do a search.
    Yes there were threads on this topic, but the ones that I have seen, you always seem to close them, or tell people that this has been discussed before, and try to limit the discussion. There are many threads on other issues that are discussed over and over. Apparently, it is ok to repeatedly discuss those issues, why not this one?
    Last edit by max1x on Oct 6, '06
  3. by   max1x
    Quote from Tanvi Tusti
    I have to say that you cannot assume that EVERY nurse that comes to work in the US does it because they are from a poor country or to earn more money. I have 2 degrees and a masters degree and I am neither from a poor country OR will earn more money, I will in fact be on less money. I am doing it to see the way other countries work and whether or not there is anything I can bring back to my own country. I for one love my job and I am proud to be a nurse and surely you have to acknowledge that nurses from poorer countries are still nurses. They have to comply to a minimum educational standard to work in the US. Your implication is that just because they come from a poorer country they are less capable of doing the job. Each has to be assessed on his/her own merit.
    The question at hand here is, is it right to give these people from "poorer" countries jobs when there are nurse shortages, only to insist they leave when the "going gets tough"? :wink2:
    I never said every nurse that comes here is from a poor country. But lets face it, most of them do. I have worked with several nurses from Canada. Believe me, they are not happy with their jobs here. According to them, most nurses in Canada belong to unions; but that is another story.
    Yes, it is ok to send them home if they are no longer needed. They come here (nurses from poor countries) on temporary visas. Problem is, there is an entire industry set up to keep them here. There are nursing schools in poor countries that teach nurses how to work in american hospitals. There are recruitment firms that import them for a fee. There are law firms that specialize in getting them permanent visas. I imagine a similar situation exists in England.
    Last edit by max1x on Oct 5, '06
  4. by   Mdimi
    Quote from max1x
    ... There are recruitment firms that import them for a fee. There are law firms that specialize in getting them permanent visas. I imagine a similar situation exists in England.
    Recruitment agencies and law firms to assist immigration technicalities is a common practice across all disciplines (not just for nursing) these exist in many countries because regulations and laws differ from country to country.
  5. by   max1x
    Yes, but how many disciplines have schools set up specifically to teach practioners how to work in america? How many other disciplines have MDs and lawyers going to nursing school, (as is the case in the Philippines) because it is the express ticket to america?
    Therein lies the difference.
  6. by   Mdimi
    Quote from max1x
    Yes, but how many disciplines have schools set up specifically to teach practioners how to work in america? How many other disciplines have MDs and lawyers going to nursing school, (as is the case in the Philippines) because it is the express ticket to america?
    Therein lies the difference.
    I see, so these schools are in Phillipines, can you mention a few other poor countries with these schools that even MDs re-train for nursing. What I am against is for one to take a case study and make generalizations against overseas nurses. I know of a lot of MD's from poor countries migrating to train or to take junior doctors posts in developed countries. And indeed nurses who re-train out of nursing to become MD,s or lawyers for job satisfaction, respect and more pay.

    If you have statistics or evidence regarding existence of these schools in poor countries, (organised system qualifying to be called an industry) I remain to be corrected.
    Last edit by Mdimi on Oct 6, '06
  7. by   madwife2002
    Madwife2002 where do you get your data from? is it based on the "foreign" nurse who called in sick? Well, From the facts above, we can conclude that overseas nurses (which you call "foreign") are not the culprits of "throw-a-sickie" culture.
    In my health authority it was well known that nurses from certain countries would phone in sick for their regular job and or bank work agency. I know because i have seen the evidence and it was a cause of an 'emergency discussion' which changed the way nurses were allowed to work overtime and or bank after they had phoned in sick.
  8. by   Romeo4u-RN
    well said suzanne4. it seems to me you hit it on the dot. it's a real shame, that certain people for some reason or another, still have not been able to fully understand the differance between foreign educated nurses and illegal immigrants.

    cheers:
    romeo4u-rn



    Quote from suzanne4
    foreign nurses coming to the us to work, all have at least bsns or the equivalent. that is required for them to get a visa to work here. they are not uneducated and have nothing to do with the problem of illegal immigrants coming from mexico.

    please stick to the original topic that was posted. and it was about the uk, not the us.
  9. by   Romeo4u-RN
    I not only agree with you ndosie about changing this selfish view, but I would also further like to add, that we as nurses, have to start re-educating people, especially those narrow and close minded people who apparently still live in a world full of racial biases and dogmatic issues. And maybe then, we can make this a better world, not only for ourselves, but for all of those foreign nurses as well. And like you well said, these values are for the interest of everybody, and we should be able to share it equally with everyone else. After all, it is a God given right. As for what Max1 said, "it's all a bunch of bull". There are still people who are respected, regardless of their particular interests, and not necesarily looking out for their own self interest. And if you look deep down in our history, you will see I'm right. Even the the holy scriptures in our bible mention it as well. I wonder sometimes myself, if part of our humanity is going slowly down the drain, with all these selfish ideas.

    Romeo4u-RN

    :smackingf


    Quote from ndosie
    Quoting Max1: "This is america! No one respects people in this country who do not look out for their own self interest"

    If only we could only change this selfish view, then we could change the world. We need to think bigger than this, see people before you see migrant labour, see the world before you see the third world, or even America. I would like to think that we share the values of justice, freedom, equality and democracy and we respect those values before this "self interest". In fact these values are for the interest of everybody (us included). I am not suprised, but I just wonder!
  10. by   sroggy4
    Quote from RNsRWe
    I'm not sure what you mean by this...? With a very rare exception, it seems to me that hospitals are scooping up new grads as fast as they can exit nursing school! What makes you say that new grads (as a group, or trend) are unable to find employment "straight away" after getting degrees? I don't believe this to be the case. And as for being "forced to work for agencies and rest homes and other countries..." -- what ARE you talking about? I haven't heard of anyone who was "forced" to leave the country to get a job! And, along those lines, haven't heard of anyone who could not "secure employment at places/careers they desire/have a passion for"...that is, assuming they were employable at ALL. There's always the person who just won't fit in anywhere. They are not the standard norm. I think you're WAY overreaching to make a point, and it's not going to be made on this reasoning.

    Actually, what I'm *NOW* thinking is, there's going to be an even greater drove of foreign nurses who will be leaving the UK and be applying for work visas to the US. Apparently even LESS reason for our government supporting OUR nursing schools, huh? If this is the wave of nursing's future, US patients are going to be hard-pressed to find an American-born nurse anywhere in sight!
    I get your point. As a uk student, the prospects of finding work in our country are extremely slim at the moment. 90% of newly qualifieds currently unable to find work as a nurse. This is partly down to a government faux pas of recruiting too many overseas nurses to fill a crisis ridden national health service shortage, but also partly due to funding crisis and ward closures nationwide. There is clearly a need for more nurses, but no money to pay for them. When I qualify what do I do? Do I work in a different industry thus losing all of the valuable nursing skills acquired or do I take them to another country if my country can't use them? I must say, I will travel to where the work is on offer as has happened in our country, not ideal, but nonetheless, I would hope people would value a working contribution to their country, what are your thoughts?
  11. by   sroggy4
    Quote from RNsRWe
    I'm not sure what you mean by this...? With a very rare exception, it seems to me that hospitals are scooping up new grads as fast as they can exit nursing school! What makes you say that new grads (as a group, or trend) are unable to find employment "straight away" after getting degrees? I don't believe this to be the case. And as for being "forced to work for agencies and rest homes and other countries..." -- what ARE you talking about? I haven't heard of anyone who was "forced" to leave the country to get a job! And, along those lines, haven't heard of anyone who could not "secure employment at places/careers they desire/have a passion for"...that is, assuming they were employable at ALL. There's always the person who just won't fit in anywhere. They are not the standard norm. I think you're WAY overreaching to make a point, and it's not going to be made on this reasoning.

    Actually, what I'm *NOW* thinking is, there's going to be an even greater drove of foreign nurses who will be leaving the UK and be applying for work visas to the US. Apparently even LESS reason for our government supporting OUR nursing schools, huh? If this is the wave of nursing's future, US patients are going to be hard-pressed to find an American-born nurse anywhere in sight!
    I get your point. As a uk student, the prospects of finding work in our country are extremely slim at the moment. 90% of newly qualifieds currently unable to find work as a nurse. This is partly down to a government faux pas of recruiting too many overseas nurses to fill a crisis ridden national health service shortage, but also partly due to funding crisis and ward closures nationwide. There is clearly a need for more nurses, but no money to pay for them. When I qualify what do I do? Do I work in a different industry thus losing all of the valuable nursing skills acquired or do I take them to another country if my country can't use them? I must say, I will travel to where the work is on offer as has happened in our country, not ideal, but nonetheless, I would hope people would value a working contribution to their country, what are your thoughts?
  12. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from sroggy4
    I get your point. As a uk student, the prospects of finding work in our country are extremely slim at the moment. 90% of newly qualifieds currently unable to find work as a nurse. This is partly down to a government faux pas of recruiting too many overseas nurses to fill a crisis ridden national health service shortage, but also partly due to funding crisis and ward closures nationwide. There is clearly a need for more nurses, but no money to pay for them. When I qualify what do I do? Do I work in a different industry thus losing all of the valuable nursing skills acquired or do I take them to another country if my country can't use them? I must say, I will travel to where the work is on offer as has happened in our country, not ideal, but nonetheless, I would hope people would value a working contribution to their country, what are your thoughts?
    I'm floored that the prospects for new grads in the UK are so poor. Reading through this thread tells me that there's no good answer for anyone, in any country, for the foreseeable future.

    I'm sure that if I were you, and were in a position to travel, I'd get myself on the next available flight to the US so that I could retain my skills and become employed in the profession to which I trained. There is nothing wrong in wanting to do that, and I hope I don't make you feel that I wouldn't welcome you as a co-worker!

    My guess, however, is that the long-term problems that we have here (working conditions, inadequate equipment and staffing) won't be corrected by having more nurses immigrate from other countries. As long as nurses arrive here with lower expectations (because, frankly, the pay and conditions in their home countries are substantially less than in the US already and the need for a job that CAN'T be had at home is huge), we won't see any improvements made at all. ONLY if the hospitals, insurance industry, etc HAD to deal with us as a block force that WON'T take it any more, will we see those improvements.

    In the UK, the moratorium on immigrant nurses means that there will be a gradual (slow slow gradual) replacement of foreign nurses by UK nurses in positions currently held by foreigners who don't hold permanent work papers. That is as it should be. No guarantee for a permanent lifelong position means that you can and should be replaced by a citizen of that country in which you are temporarily working. For you, however, it might not come soon enough, and you just might find yourself on our shores.

    But believe me, if I had all the answers, I sure wouldn't be working 12 hour shifts any longer!
  13. by   bubblesbanks
    It is sad that the USA wants to exploit the foreign nurses because it means for them cheaper pay. It is not different the labor workers coming into our boarder towns and working for dirt cheap, which, in fact, lowers the hourly wages of our American workers. This is not right in my opion. I have been a travel nurse off and on for approx. 3 years and have had the privilage of meetings and becoming friends with several Phillipine nurses. Yes, they do come here for better pay/better future but, they pay a price. Often they have to leave their families behind while the nurse comes here to work and then they send half there paycheck back home so that there family can have a decent living. These foreign nurses that come to the USA come in with BSN's/MSN's and what a deal for our country that they pay the LPN/ADN wages. It is a sad thing. As I said before I have been to many hospitals and have seen many things. Never have a seen a american nurse not be able to find a job due to foreign nurses taking up those positions. The only bad thing I have seen happen from this is wages for nurses are stagnant. We do not get paid for what we are worth! Doctors who train in other countries would have no reason to go to nursing school, as far a I know, from the foreign doctors I have meet from the Phillipines all they have to do is be able to read english and understand it to take theire licensure test here? Maybe I have heard wrong. As for the nurses coming here with there BSN/MSN, they come here with those degrees because that is how there school system it set-up. From what I have heard from the foreign exchange student we hosted for a year the UK school system is way more advance then ours. As far as the Phillipine schools training their students for America. Where did this information come from? The Phillipines are not trained to go anywhere. They go for a better life. If you only go paid 50 peso's any hour (currency of the Phillipines) and that only equaled a UK/American wage of $5 dollars any hour, wouldn't you go?
    Last edit by bubblesbanks on Oct 9, '06

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