Foreign nurses face the axe in Britain - page 5

london: new rules designed to safeguard jobs for british trainee nurses could mean that thousands of foreign nurses already employed here are forced out of work. with as many as 80 per cent of... Read More

  1. by   mayflower2000
    Quote from ndosie
    Just to put matters right for the record, overseas nurses are not "desperate poor individuals who left their brain-drained countries" as most of your posts suggest. Indeed these are professionals with various skills and experience who are smart enough to study the world economy and do what common sense would do, find a suitable market, take a calculated risk and bravery and sell your commodity where it is demanded (labour in this case). If you can understand the fluidity of the world economy and the free market, then you will know why people migrate and why all countries need migration. In the 18 & 19th century the market forces drove migrants to Africa and America where the rich made their fortune. The 20th century has seen the reversal of this (at a much lower extent) where migrants move to the western countries to sell their skilled abour. I guess the job market is so volatile all over the world and it is hypocrisy for some countries which once pushed for free market economy like the USA and the UK (tring to crack opportunities and markets in the third world) are now pushing away the overseas nurses who have always been there for the NHS when it was desperately needing them over decades delivering care in difficult circumstances. Who knows? with this demand-supply economy, there is a way of buffering the system, such that less students will choose nursing as a career, nurses will change their profession and the demand will be created again for nursing, it is all about market forces and politics will flow with the market I guess.
    well said. i agree with you. :wink2:
  2. by   max1x
    This is excellent!! Wake up people, we are not benefiting from globalization! Everyone knows why there is always a nursing shortage. It is because nurses salaries and working conditions are something that most americans would never tolerate. So how do we solve the perpetual shortage and high turnover in nursing? Well, we import nurses from third world countries who will tolerate those conditions to escape far worse conditions in their own country. Unfortunately, corporate america's lust for cheap labor will probably prevent anything like this from happening in this country.
    We need to organize and acomplish the same thing here. This is america! No one respects people in this country who do not look out for their own self interest.
  3. by   Mdimi
    Quoting Max1: "This is america! No one respects people in this country who do not look out for their own self interest"

    If only we could only change this selfish view, then we could change the world. We need to think bigger than this, see people before you see migrant labour, see the world before you see the third world, or even America. I would like to think that we share the values of justice, freedom, equality and democracy and we respect those values before this "self interest". In fact these values are for the interest of everybody (us included). I am not suprised, but I just wonder!
  4. by   max1x
    It might surprise you to know that there was an almost total moratorium on immigration from the late 1920s until the early 1960s. Of course, all these people that advocate a completely open border between the USA and Mexico, and virtually unlimited immigration to this country don't like to be reminded of that! President Kennedy's reccomendation to INCREASE legal immigration to 250,000 was considered to be "radical" by many conservatives at the time.
    IN the last 5-6 years, according to the US censys dept, we have had about 6 MILLION immigrants come to this country. Of course, this vastly underestimates all the illegals, but that is another story.
    If people want freedom and democracy, let them fight for it in their own country. We do not benefit from third world countries exporting their poverty to the USA.
    Besides, what does this say about the nursing profession if the only people willing to do this work are immigrants from poor countries?
  5. by   Mdimi
    This is another biased and skewed thinking. I think poverty has always been here, it just depends on which class of society you are talking from. Poverty propagators are those people that are not willing to work (or do certain jobs) and choose to depend on the state benefits. Nurses on the other hand are hard working and contribute significantly to the economic growth of America. Immigration is another issue altogether.

    All I say is that you do not need to go to the third world countries to import poverty because America is full of it already. Moreover, the third world uneducated, poor individuals would not qualify for a US visa anyway.
    Last edit by Mdimi on Oct 5, '06
  6. by   lindarn
    Quote from ndosie
    This is another biased and skewed thinking. I think poverty has always been here, it just depends on which class of society you are talking from. Poverty propagators are those people that are not willing to work (or do certain jobs) and choose to depend on the state benefits. Nurses on the other hand are hard working and contribute significantly to the economic growth of America. Immigration is another issue altogether. All I say is you do not need to go to the third world countries to import poverty because America is full of it. Moreover, the third world uneducated, poor individuals would not qualify for a US visa anyway.
    Really? What country are you living in, and you don't live in the US, and you must not read the papers on a regular basis. "Third world ineducated, poor, do not qualify for US Visas"? Just to update you, the US is full to the brim with, "third world uneducted poor individuals". The are called illegal aliens. They are overwhelmingly hispanic, do not need visas, because they come here illegally. And the hispanic citizens, and the politicians who they buy, are starting to vote in a political block. That us why our do nothing politicians are catering to the hispanic vote, and trying to have passed legislation such as "amnesty for illegal", allowing them to obtain drivers licenses, continue the practice of "birthright citizenship", allowing illegal alien chidren to attend our public schools, attend our state iniversities as legal state residents, the list goes on. Does this go on in England?

    They are driving down the wages here in the US, and as they continue to allow more foreign nurses to enter and work here, wages and working continue to deteriorate. We do not need more foreign nurses here, we need retention policies that encourage nurses to remain at the bedside, instead of driving them away.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Oct 4, '06
  7. by   suzanne4
    foreign nurses coming to the us to work, all have at least bsns or the equivalent. that is required for them to get a visa to work here. they are not uneducated and have nothing to do with the problem of illegal immigrants coming from mexico.

    please stick to the original topic that was posted. and it was about the uk, not the us.
  8. by   Mdimi
    Immigration is a sensitive topic and many times genuine migrant workers have been mistakenly confused with illegals. That's why moves like that taken in the UK will always get temporary headlines, but long term effects are not yet known. That is why the RCN informed the Government that the move was a "short term and an ill-thought measure".
    Last edit by Mdimi on Oct 5, '06
  9. by   max1x
    Why do the moderators always seem to jump in whenever a post does not embrace growing numbers of third world immigrant nurses coming to america? There are many threads on this forum that get of topic. We are hardly getting off topic if we look at the big picture here.
    As I have said before, there are 2 ways to solve the nursing shortage (and there is not much of a shortage in many places these days).
    1) we can improve the salary and working conditions to make this job more attractive to americans, or
    2) we can import nurses from poor countries who will be more likely to tolerate those conditions to escape worse conditions in their own countries.
    It is clear the healthcare industry has chosen option #2. They have always been resistant to option#1.
    Now lets really look at the big picture. The median age of nurses in the USA is about 45. Over the next 20 years, at least half the nursing work force will retire. At the same time, there will be a huge number of elderly baby boomers needing health care. Now where will all those nurses come from? In the past, they were (almost) all women, since most women really only had 2 career options, teaching and nursing. This is obviously no longer true; and lets face it, there will likely never be enough men willing to do this work. So where will all the nurses come from? They will come from the Phillipines, India, and (I'm sure it is only a matter of time) from Mexico and central america.
    I'm sure the government and the healthcare industry will rationalize this as a way to keep down the cost of healthcare while still providing "quality".
    So, what does this really say about nursing if the only people willing to do this work (in america and england, and throughout europe) are immigrants from poor countries?
  10. by   augigi
    I'm from Australia and planning to take my particular expertise to the US to work in a nursing role. I'm not from a poor country. I have a graduate degree. It's just a good job opportunity. Then again, I'm not planning to immigrate, just work for a few years.
  11. by   Tanvi Tusti
    Quote from max1x
    Why do the moderators always seem to jump in whenever a post does not embrace growing numbers of third world immigrant nurses coming to america? There are many threads on this forum that get of topic. We are hardly getting off topic if we look at the big picture here.
    As I have said before, there are 2 ways to solve the nursing shortage (and there is not much of a shortage in many places these days).
    1) we can improve the salary and working conditions to make this job more attractive to americans, or
    2) we can import nurses from poor countries who will be more likely to tolerate those conditions to escape worse conditions in their own countries.
    It is clear the healthcare industry has chosen option #2. They have always been resistant to option#1.
    Now lets really look at the big picture. The median age of nurses in the USA is about 45. Over the next 20 years, at least half the nursing work force will retire. At the same time, there will be a huge number of elderly baby boomers needing health care. Now where will all those nurses come from? In the past, they were (almost) all women, since most women really only had 2 career options, teaching and nursing. This is obviously no longer true; and lets face it, there will likely never be enough men willing to do this work. So where will all the nurses come from? They will come from the Phillipines, India, and (I'm sure it is only a matter of time) from Mexico and central america.
    I'm sure the government and the healthcare industry will rationalize this as a way to keep down the cost of healthcare while still providing "quality".
    So, what does this really say about nursing if the only people willing to do this work (in america and england, and throughout europe) are immigrants from poor countries?
    I have to say that you cannot assume that EVERY nurse that comes to work in the US does it because they are from a poor country or to earn more money. I have 2 degrees and a masters degree and I am neither from a poor country OR will earn more money, I will in fact be on less money. I am doing it to see the way other countries work and whether or not there is anything I can bring back to my own country. I for one love my job and I am proud to be a nurse and surely you have to acknowledge that nurses from poorer countries are still nurses. They have to comply to a minimum educational standard to work in the US. Your implication is that just because they come from a poorer country they are less capable of doing the job. Each has to be assessed on his/her own merit.
    The question at hand here is, is it right to give these people from "poorer" countries jobs when there are nurse shortages, only to insist they leave when the "going gets tough"? :wink2:
    Last edit by Tanvi Tusti on Oct 5, '06
  12. by   wmarat
    Quote from celeste7767
    At least the UK is protecting the future for its OWN CITIZENS, which is more than I can say for our country which would rather IMPORT foreign nurses to keep the salaries of nurses where they are and to allow the abuses to continue, (i.e. mandatory overtime. etc). The US federal government would be smart to take a lesson from the UK and provide incentives to employers of nurses, nursing schools, etc. to attract more COMPETENT people into the profession rather than import whatever they can get, and to hec with quality. When I read that Ellis Hospital gives its nurses a WHOPPING 2.2% WAGE INCREASE, I know that we're all in trouble. 2.2% won't cover inflation for the last month let alone the past several years when wages have been relatively stagnant and during which benefits have been decreased in most job sectors.
    1. How many American born nurses are not able to find job?
    2. You are crying that nurses' burden is impoossible, but do not want anybody to come in. It seems to me as logical deadlock.
    3. Let me remind you that your ancestors IMMIGRATED or CONQUESTED America, unless you are Indian.
    4. In my humble opinion, based on 20 years of practice in 4 countries, a nurse who is XENOPHOBIC like you has to be forced out of profession. You and people like are shame to our profession.
  13. by   suzanne4
    Quote from max1x
    Why do the moderators always seem to jump in whenever a post does not embrace growing numbers of third world immigrant nurses coming to america? There are many threads on this forum that get of topic. We are hardly getting off topic if we look at the big picture here.
    As I have said before, there are 2 ways to solve the nursing shortage (and there is not much of a shortage in many places these days).
    1) we can improve the salary and working conditions to make this job more attractive to americans, or
    2) we can import nurses from poor countries who will be more likely to tolerate those conditions to escape worse conditions in their own countries.
    It is clear the healthcare industry has chosen option #2. They have always been resistant to option#1.
    Now lets really look at the big picture. The median age of nurses in the USA is about 45. Over the next 20 years, at least half the nursing work force will retire. At the same time, there will be a huge number of elderly baby boomers needing health care. Now where will all those nurses come from? In the past, they were (almost) all women, since most women really only had 2 career options, teaching and nursing. This is obviously no longer true; and lets face it, there will likely never be enough men willing to do this work. So where will all the nurses come from? They will come from the Phillipines, India, and (I'm sure it is only a matter of time) from Mexico and central america.
    I'm sure the government and the healthcare industry will rationalize this as a way to keep down the cost of healthcare while still providing "quality".
    So, what does this really say about nursing if the only people willing to do this work (in america and england, and throughout europe) are immigrants from poor countries?
    Moderators jump in when the posts are no longer is responding to the original thread. The topic was UK nursing, not nurses from third world countries coming to the US.

    There are already many threads on that topic, if you would take the time to do a search.

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