Foreign nurses face the axe in Britain - page 4

london: new rules designed to safeguard jobs for british trainee nurses could mean that thousands of foreign nurses already employed here are forced out of work. with as many as 80 per cent of... Read More

  1. by   Roy Fokker
    America exports it's products, technologies and corporations worldwide (often displacing and bankrupting local businesses)? Why, that's good old capitalism.

    America imports labour? Bad bad, no no!

    Apparently, capitalism can be applied selectively. Competition and free markets are American virtues - so long as American businesses and jobs are protected....

    Quote from Rep
    Easy for you to say, what if we go back to our own country and there is no job waiting for us there? No way, I will stay where I am wanted.
    But don't you see Rep? Citizens "belong" to their nations and countries. You aren't an individual - you're property

    And before any of y'all scream - I was being sarcastic.


    cheers,
  2. by   madwife2002
    Do you know they are hundreds of trained new grads in the UK that dont work as nurses because there are no jobs!!
    They cant come and help out in other countries as they have not been trained to be general nurses, some are Paediatic trained nurses, some are Adult trained nurses, some specialised in Mental health! So they work where they can get a job, and can mean the supermarket!!!!!
  3. by   allwright
    theres a bigger nursing shortage in the UK than in the USA. The problem is politics. Hospital trusts and the govenment are fighting over finance and the nurses are the weapons being used. Paying off nurses gets better headlines and public support than any other cost savings they can make. Unemployed graduate nurses look bad for the government so to force the hospitals to employ new graduates the govenment has changed the rules on foreign trained nurses with experience. As most nurses in the UK are foreign I wouldnt be too concerned about them being paid off and sent home. Nurses have always been an easy target in the UK, just look at their pay levels (another reason UK nurses want to move to the USA) and just look at the lack of loyalty they have from their employers.
  4. by   fusionfire32
    [quote=tomskm]this is what i would call.. poor planning and abuse of foreign nurses and their services.... well, why recruit them in the first place, many senior nurses from overseas leave behind secure well paying jobs, and i personally know over 200 nurses who resigned well paying jobs in the middle east to work in a democracy and freedom loving country.

    agreed that it is poor planning and that it is very much appreciated that many foreign nurses have left well paid jobs back home, my point is if they have a well paid jobs back home why are you blaming our country for having them. they were well aware of the facts before they came here so why moan. unlike any other country our national health service is an institution on its own as it is run by govt. and is free for all uk national. try find that sort of service in any other part of the world and i will salute you. i have followed your argument that if these nurses move abroad to better their prospects and their own country is finding difficulty in finding professionals then it is the fault of the citizens of that nation who dont value their country. and move away.
  5. by   Demonsthenes
    Great Britain used to have a rather rigid class system in which peoples socio-economic-cultural class was pre-ordained based upon their ancestory, accent, and so on.
    The importation of foreign nurses from third world countries to the UK and the USA, who come from the "peasant class" in their native countries tends to reinforce "stereotypes" of nurses as a somewhat "oppressed working class" individuals who should be exploited.
    I hope that both British and American nurses realize that the importation of foreign nurses from third world countries may have the purpose of reinforcing the degraded status of nurses so as to maintain lower wages, the disrespect of nurses and nursing, poor working conditions, and poor job security.
    Best of luck to British Nurses in this regard.
  6. by   gsn1973
    Quote from allwright
    theres a bigger nursing shortage in the UK than in the USA. The problem is politics. Hospital trusts and the govenment are fighting over finance and the nurses are the weapons being used. Paying off nurses gets better headlines and public support than any other cost savings they can make. Unemployed graduate nurses look bad for the government so to force the hospitals to employ new graduates the govenment has changed the rules on foreign trained nurses with experience. As most nurses in the UK are foreign I wouldnt be too concerned about them being paid off and sent home. Nurses have always been an easy target in the UK, just look at their pay levels (another reason UK nurses want to move to the USA) and just look at the lack of loyalty they have from their employers.


    a lot of replies here have a vague idea of nursing in the UK. Foreign nurses receive the same benefits as that of their English counterpart, 7 weeks paid holiday annually, at least 15 days sick leave, and a more friendly working environment. I know, i've worked in the Middle East and the US already, where you find it harder to relax. My salary is about the same as when i was in the US but it is more expensive to live here in the UK. Besides, Europe is a more exciting place to travel.And free healthcare is a big plus too.

    Problem is, immigration got out of control because of a lot of eastern European countries joining the EU.UK has opened its job market to these countries and the influx of other european nationals has somehow displaced foreign nurses coming from asia.
  7. by   kenny b
    [quote=fusionfire32]
    Quote from tomskm
    unlike any other country our National Health Service is an institution on its own as it is run by govt. and is free for all uk national. try find that sort of service in any other part of the world and i will salute you.
    Forgive my ignorance and the fact that I'm probably departing from the thread a little (it seems somewhat played out anyway), but I've always wondered about the NHS (and I mean this in a wholly curious and non-combative way ).

    How can the system be truly free? Where does the money come from? Is it entirely from the taxpayers? From import taxes? The long vacations, etc. sound really great, but those would be very expensive (I would think).

    Also, (and once again, just curious about our neighbors and allies over the Atlantic), what story was give to the recent and imminent graduates of nursing school there in the UK? Did they know that there weren't enough jobs (whether it be because of funding or lack of need or what-have-you)?

    Just looking for an education here (I'm careful because sometimes I ask for an education about politics from someone with whom I disagree, I get clobbered because the topic is so charged they assume I'm on the attack).

    Thanks in advance for the education because a mind is a terrible thing to waste!

    Rgds,
    Kenny B.
  8. by   kittagirl
    Kenny B, I'm a staff nurse in the uk and started to write answer to your question but I'm afraid it's become very long........................
    I'll post a bit of it but I think I'd bore most of you. However on the off chance if you really are intrested I'm willing to submit it all.


    Hi, I am a Staff Nurse trained and currently working in the NHS, and am quite happy to answer all and any questions that you have, if I can.

    "How can the system be truly free? Where does the money come from? Is it entirely from the taxpayers? From import taxes?"

    The NHS is funded by the government purse, so yes from general taxes, however on average less of British taxes go towards the NHS than any other European country, where they still have to pay for care.

    The long vacations, etc. sound really great, but those would be very expensive (I would think).
    I'm sure they are, however these are considered to be one of the few perks of nursing in the UK. The a/l is set though out the country as is the salary. Private hospitals can do as they want. It works out as
    - at start of service to 5yrs you get 30 days or equivalent= 6 weeks
    - 5 year-10 years service 35 days = 7 weeks
    - 10 years + 42 days = 8 weeks and 2 days

    For some reason I can't get on the web site to down load the salary scales will do so when I figure out why my 'puter is having a fit....On average a newly qualified nurse will start on 19500pa
    But the wages aren't all that great by UK standards with all other civil servants i.e.: those who work for the government, with the expectation of paramedics who are on the same scale as nurses. (I made more stacking shelves at night at the local supermarket as a student than working extra on the wards)

    Foreign nurse sign the exact same contracts as British nurses and have all the same rights and benefits. Very few nursing jobs have a defined contract lenght. Where the problem will occur is that the laws have changed in regard to applying for citizenship, it was that you had to be in the UK 3 years (legally) to apply for citizenship, it is now 5 years. So if you have a nurse who has only been in country 2yrs 11 mths and gets made redundant they have the same rights in regard to employment in the NHS as someone just off the plane. IE; not a lot! But so far the majority of nurses made redunant (well in my locality anyway) have all been quite high up, management posts or those due to retire soon. The average nurse is been affected more by the lack of staff on the ward floor
    There are always jobs in the UK for those will to work they may not be in acute care but nursing homes = long term facilities are still crying out for staff.

    Also, (and once again, just curious about our neighbors and allies over the Atlantic), what story was give to the recent and imminent graduates of nursing school there in the UK? Did they know that there weren't enough jobs (whether it be because of funding or lack of need or what-have-you)?

    Three years ago when these people would have started their training the NHS was crying out for nurses and a lot of nurse managers got some very nice paid first class holidays going to Spain/ Sweden/ Philippines and India to recruit nurses. Majority of who are excellent trained valued members of staff. All the jobs have not been filled, my ward is currently running 3.5 members of trained staff under but there is no money there to fund the jobs.

    The problem, the biggest problem is that the NHS is considered a plaything of each and every government, each of them when campaigning claim they are going to make the NHS better, more efficient, less costly.
    That's impossible, it is an organisation that haemorrhages money every minute and earns nothing.
    We are also hide bound by political correctness. The NHS was built on the motto that care is free at the point of entry. Our receptionists are not ALLOWED ask if a person is a British citizen. (Officially if they are overseas residents any emergency care is free after that they should be charged, it rarely happens.)

    If you are really intrested I can tell you more about the health care system in the UK. And about nursing here.
  9. by   Tanvi Tusti
    [quote=kenny b]
    Quote from fusionfire32

    Forgive my ignorance and the fact that I'm probably departing from the thread a little (it seems somewhat played out anyway), but I've always wondered about the NHS (and I mean this in a wholly curious and non-combative way ).

    How can the system be truly free? Where does the money come from? Is it entirely from the taxpayers? From import taxes? The long vacations, etc. sound really great, but those would be very expensive (I would think).

    Also, (and once again, just curious about our neighbors and allies over the Atlantic), what story was give to the recent and imminent graduates of nursing school there in the UK? Did they know that there weren't enough jobs (whether it be because of funding or lack of need or what-have-you)?

    Just looking for an education here (I'm careful because sometimes I ask for an education about politics from someone with whom I disagree, I get clobbered because the topic is so charged they assume I'm on the attack).

    Thanks in advance for the education because a mind is a terrible thing to waste!

    Rgds,
    Kenny B.
    Hi Kenny,
    Im a Nurse Practitioner here in the UK with over 15 years experience and married to an American, so I have insight into both cultures on a personal and professional level.
    The NHS was set up in 1948 to provide free healthcare to all citizens on a need basis rather than ability to pay. To the individual person it is to all intents, a free service. Obviously it is a massive organisation (One of the biggest employers in the UK) and consequently requires a huge amount of money to finance its operations.
    This money predominantly comes from taxes, althought the individual does not pay out money directly to the NHS. Our taxes go towards funding education, healthcare, social care etc but not to just any one institution. Free healthcare means just that. Any hospital stay, surgery, outpatients appointments, rehab, its all free irrespective of how many times you need it within any one year throughout your life.
    As for the long vacations, cost isnt an issue here really at all. Its just contracted into your job. I get 7 weeks a year in the job I do but the minimum is around 5 weeks.
    The NHS is struggling financially as you can imagine the costs to run it are enormous, there has always been a recruitment an retention issue with nurses as A)The pay, historically, has not been as good as equivalent professions and B)Staff shortages can often make the job very stressful. An answer to this was to recruit from abroad. These nurses were employed with the NHS but their entitlement to remain in the UK permantly was never given. I personally, in my 18 years (including the 3 training), have NEVER seen a nurse fired from her job, be it a UK trained nurse or one from abroad Any cutbacks have always been through natural wastage ie: not replacing a job when someone leaves.
    As for the problem of trained UK nurses being unable to find a job on graduation, this, as far back as I can remember has been a threat. When I qualified as a nurse in 1980 I was told the same thing. Everyone on my course found a job, some on temporary contracts, myself included, but after 6 months this became permanent. On qualifying as a midwife in 2001 I was told the same thing, but again I got a job.
    I am in the process of immigration to the US, not as someone in this thread cited, for the money. I will actually be on LESS money and it sure isnt for the vacation time lol. Im doing it because my husband is American and he wants to go back Stateside for a couple of years. So there are all sorts of reasons why nurses want to come to the US.
    Im looking forward to it, it will be a challenge and I do love the American people (I married one after all!!).
    Hope this answers some of your questions
    xx
  10. by   augigi
    Tom, get ready to salute - Australia also has free health care for residents/citizens (Medicare) which is federally funded by taxpayers. Of course now you get penalised with a larger medicare tax levy if you're >30yo and don't take out private health cover.

    When will countries realise the roundabout of nurses won't stop until employers take actual measures to retain nurses like adequate pay and conditions?

    Having said that, I take exception to the poster who said the US accepts "anyone" including people who are not "competent". I am planning to take a US position soon which I am exceedingly competent for - they needed to recruit me from australia - and I must pass all requirements that a US-trained nurse did in order to gain a license.
  11. by   RGN1
    Quote from augigi
    Having said that, I take exception to the poster who said the US accepts "anyone" including people who are not "competent". I am planning to take a US position soon which I am exceedingly competent for and I must pass all requirements that a US-trained nurse did in order to gain a license.
    :yeahthat:
    Can I just add that the UK is a disaster zone right now for nurses with incompetant management making short term cuts as short term measures. Wait until winter hits then all those poor grads will suddenly be in demand & it would serve the NHS right if most of turned round & said "no" because they had found better payed. less stressful jobs elsewhere!! Sad thing is never has so much money been pumped into the healthcare system so go figure???

    Oh & just to re-iterate what another poster said, new UK grads can't get jobs in the USA easily anyway because since the mid 1990's the UK nurse training doesn't have requisite hours to be eligible for N-CLEX RN.

    I think it's sad for foreign nurses in the UK, especailly those on adaptation programs because many may well find they can't get their work permits renewed once their course is completed. It's wrong to treat people this way.

    By the by, latest news shows UK nurses are heading for Australia & New Zealand instead! Apparantly 150 form one trust this month!!!
  12. by   kenny b
    Quote from kittagirl
    If you are really intrested I can tell you more about the health care system in the UK. And about nursing here.
    I'm very interested, but I hate to ask you for any more of your time. You spent a lot of time answering my question and I appreciate that very much. I have a friend at work who is an advocate of socialized medicine but he doesn't have a lot of detail about how it works. I thought I should educate myself before I formed an opinion.

    Regards,
    Kenny B.
  13. by   Mdimi
    Just to put matters right for the record, overseas nurses are not "desperate poor individuals who left their brain-drained countries" as most of your posts suggest. Indeed these are professionals with various skills and experience who are smart enough to study the world economy and do what common sense would do, find a suitable market, take a calculated risk and bravery and sell your commodity where it is demanded (labour in this case). If you can understand the fluidity of the world economy and the free market, then you will know why people migrate and why all countries need migration. In the 18 & 19th century the market forces drove migrants to Africa and America where the rich made their fortune. The 20th century has seen the reversal of this (at a much lower extent) where migrants move to the western countries to sell their skilled abour. I guess the job market is so volatile all over the world and it is hypocrisy for some countries which once pushed for free market economy like the USA and the UK (tring to crack opportunities and markets in the third world) are now pushing away the overseas nurses who have always been there for the NHS when it was desperately needing them over decades delivering care in difficult circumstances. Who knows? with this demand-supply economy, there is a way of buffering the system, such that less students will choose nursing as a career, nurses will change their profession and the demand will be created again for nursing, it is all about market forces and politics will flow with the market I guess.

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