Foreign Nurses Charged For Walking Off Job - page 4

Smithtown nurses charged with endangering kids after walk-out Ten nurses who abruptly resigned from their jobs last year at a Smithtown nursing center were charged Thursday -- along with an... Read More

  1. by   SuesquatchRN
    We disagree, Lizz.

    And I read the indictment. I do know how to read.
  2. by   kukukajoo
    Please don't forget- An indictment and allegation doesn't mean guilt at all. They can allege all they want, does not make it true. Also, I think in the original artilce it states their attorneys said they had not sought any other work at all- this the govt would have to prove. Their whole case centers on them being able to prove the conspiracy.

    Heck my sister in law was indicted for Federal Housing Fraud- a Class A Felony that would mean years in federal prison. They said she never reported her increased income, even though she had a letter CONFIRMING the income change, which resulted in an increase of rent and had those receipts to back it up as well. So for more than a year, her name was plastered up as a thief and she was finally exonerated. She has never been the same. They made her sound like a monster, thief, liar, etc. in this small town. Sometimes we forget the innocent until proven guilty.

    Further- here in NH when you rent an apt or house, you are protected by something called a "warranty of habitability" which basically states that the landlord, by the action of renting the place, warrants the place to be rentable and free from major defects that would affect the livability of the place. If a tenant goes into a rental situation into a real dumpy bad rent, even knowing it is a dump and possibly even receiving reduced rent because of the condition of the place, they can still sue the landlord as the law says basically that they are protected from themselves and their bad decisions of renting a craphole.

    I guess what I am saying is that maybe employment contracts, like leases, should have this law built into them. So that if you sign on the dotted line, and then realize you just signed into indentured servitude or are expected to work in illegal conditions then it should be automatically nullified.

    I would like to see a law that states that upon entering an employment contract, an employer warrants that said working conditions are going to be legal and proper, non-discriminatory, etc. and if they are not, the employee should have every right to sue and go for damages, as they should be protected from themselves and their own trustingness or stupidity.

    If any contract is found to be of illegal, I believe the law states it is nullified. Like signing yourself into slavery. Sure there's a contract there, but heck it aint enforceable or legal. Nobody should have to endure some of the conditions out there.

    Lizz- they couldn't strike- they are not union.

    I agree with the comment
  3. by   Sheri257
    Even if you assume that the contracts were illegal, that doesn't mean the nurses can walkout without reasonable notice. Their actions have to be legal also.

    Again, as per the indictment:

    "Under the Education Law and the rules of the Board of Regents, a nurse committed unprofessional conduct when the nurse abandoned a patient without making reasonable arrangements for the patient's continued care OR ..."

    "When the nurse abandoned employment at a health-care facility without giving reasonable notice to the facility and under circumstances that seriously impaired the delivery of professional care to patients."


    I'm sorry but walking out on a Friday night when you know that everybody else has quit is a cheap shot, totally unprofessional and, apparently, illegal in this case.

    All they had to do was give reasonable notice. That's not too much to ask. If the contracts were illegal then take them to court but, don't make the patients suffer for it.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Mar 25, '07
  4. by   mercyteapot
    The link didn't work for me... did it include more details than the bit that was posted? Because I also didn't understand why it would be considered abandonment if it was the end of their shift. But then, it is also talked about walking out on disabled children who had no one to call, which wouldn't make sense if the new shift had arrived. If it hadn't, then of course leaving would be abandonment.

    I do hope that the business practices of the company are investigated as well.
  5. by   chris_at_lucas_RN
    Quote from Suesquatch
    And I still say it's racist. A bunch of American nurses would never be charged in this way.
    Since Americans can be (and are) of many, many races, I'm not sure if you really mean "racist."

    And I guess we don't know about "a bunch of American nurses," since, if they did this, they would certainly lose their licenses, and I've never heard of a mass abandonment because they didn't like working conditions, other than this.

    I've been to Manila (granted it has been a little while, but standards of living in Asia have improved in the past 25 years, so I'm going to assume Manila is the same.

    I don't have anything against anyone from anywhere. I grew up all over the world, maintain friendships from that time and have increased the numbers of my international relationships along with the numbers of all my relationships. (I'm expecting to be called a racist....)

    But I do think there is a difference between Americans who go overseas to provide medical/nursing care, and foreigners who come to America in the health care professions. I doubt that there are any foreign nurses, physicians or whatever, who are here because of a calling to care for America's sick and vulnerable, or to relieve suffering. If they were called to relieve suffering, they could do that in many other places, including Manila. BTW, they may not be paid well there, but if you factor in the very, very, VERY inexpensive cost of living, it mostly balances out.

    There is no such thing as a free lunch, even in America. If you sign on because of greed, and you don't get a rose garden, you should not be surprised.

    And it STILL boils down to, those patients were left ALONE. Period. The bad nature of the contracting agency has nothing to do with it. Were those nurses going to be shot if they stayed on the job and cared for the patients until other nurses could be found? No, I don't think so.

    Be sympathetic if you will, I have some sympathies as well. But for pity's sake, see the bigger picture. This is not a labor dispute among truck drivers. This is consequence of unethical behavior, malpractice if you will, where the people you should be feeling sorry for were left to fend for themselves.
  6. by   kukukajoo
    Quote from chris_at_lucas_RN
    And it STILL boils down to, those patients were left ALONE. Period. The bad nature of the contracting agency has nothing to do with it. Were those nurses going to be shot if they stayed on the job and cared for the patients until other nurses could be found? No, I don't think so.
    WHERE DOES IT SAY THEY WERE LEFT ALONE???

    Please read the article and indictment- it does not state the pts were left alone and does not even state that the kids went without care. Because this is not included in the indictment it's safe to assume the company was able to scramble and fill the shifts and no harm was done. I guraantee oif the kids were harmed it would be in the indictment and used against the nurses. What it says is they conspired to harm the kids. Not that harm had happened. Very different things.

    Also, they quit after their shift was over- it sounds like they had no other obligations other than future shifts. They did not abandon anyone in the sense of leaving them uncared for and alone.

    When you face abuse, you do it for so long, and try to make things work, deny it's happening, etc. Then one day somehow something changes and you get the courage to leave and get out of the situation. Sometimes it is a split second decision and you flee, other times it is a well thought out plan to escape your tormentor. Whatever way, the only thing that you think of when this occurs is your own safety (or your kids). You can't fault them for wanting to leave if indeed there was abuses happening.

    Bottom line is they may not have been immediate danger of being shot, but some things are just as bad, if not worse. Ask any POW or victim of domestic violence- they will tell you they could take the physical abuse, but the mental abuse is 100X worse.
  7. by   Sheri257
    Quote from chris_at_lucas_RN
    And it STILL boils down to, those patients were left ALONE. Period. The bad nature of the contracting agency has nothing to do with it. Were those nurses going to be shot if they stayed on the job and cared for the patients until other nurses could be found? No, I don't think so.

    Be sympathetic if you will, I have some sympathies as well. But for pity's sake, see the bigger picture. This is not a labor dispute among truck drivers. This is consequence of unethical behavior, malpractice if you will, where the people you should be feeling sorry for were left to fend for themselves.
    Quote from kukukajoo
    Also, they quit after their shift was over- it sounds like they had no other obligations other than future shifts. They did not abandon anyone in the sense of leaving them uncared for and alone.
    The idea that these kids were somehow not endangered is, to me at least, preposterous. I've taken care of really sick kids on respirators and they need to be suctioned constantly. Maybe they got lucky and nobody died but, don't tell me that these kids weren't endangered. It's heartbreaking.

    Even if they reported off to somebody else .... if they were scheduled to work the next day ... that must have been a hellish weekend for any nurse that did stay. Great, so ... some other nurse probably had to work a double maybe even a triple because these other nurses decided to walk out on the weekend when getting extra help would be virtually impossible.

    Does anybody care about these kids? For crying out loud, if you're gonna be a jerk and quit with no notice, at least quit on a week day so they have a better chance of finding other staff to take care of those kids.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Mar 25, '07
  8. by   Sheri257
    Quote from chris_at_lucas_RN
    But I do think there is a difference between Americans who go overseas to provide medical/nursing care, and foreigners who come to America in the health care professions. I doubt that there are any foreign nurses, physicians or whatever, who are here because of a calling to care for America's sick and vulnerable, or to relieve suffering. If they were called to relieve suffering, they could do that in many other places, including Manila.
    After doing some more reading on the employment dispute, I think this may have been part of the problem. A least some of these nurses were actually Filipino doctors who were just becoming nurses to get into the states. Some of them were very up front about the fact that they eventually wanted to become doctors here as well, and nursing was just a way to get there.

    One key thing was missing from all of the articles I read. I didn't see much concern for the patients. It's all about the money and how they thought they were getting screwed financially.

    This lawyer's specialty is employment law. From what I read of his account of the situation, he didn't take the nurse practice act into account at all. He encouraged all 26 nurses to resign at once because of what he viewed as employment law violations.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Mar 25, '07
  9. by   sunnyjohn
    Maybe I'm missing it, but where exactly does it say that the kids where left alone and that these nurses did not turn over the patients to the next shift?







    One more thing, if conditions where bad enough to warrant this many people quitting after a shift, imagine the other safety concerns in this place. I would not want my relative in a place that mistreats its nurses, foreign or domestic.
    Last edit by sunnyjohn on Mar 25, '07
  10. by   Tweety
    Quote from sunnyjohn
    Maybe I'm missing it, but where exactly does it say that the kids where left alone and that these nurses did not turn over the patients to the next shift?







    One more thing, if conditions where bad enough to warrant this many people quitting after a shift, imagine the other safety concerns in this place. I would not want my relative in a place that mistreats its nurses, foreign or domestic.

    Really. I hate to stereotype, but I am, most Filipino nurses I've worked with, and I've worked with a lot, are very tolerant of tough conditions, and take assignments without complaint. If they are angry enough to walk off the job, in that number, risking all they have to risk, including breech of contract, deportation, etc. then well that speaks volumes to me. If Americans in that number walked off that would speak volumes to me as well. Heck, Americans quit without notice all the time, and for lessor things.

    I don't think they abandoned they patients to fend for themselves by walking off the job and leaving no one in their place. However, any unit or facility anywhere that looses that many nurses is going to run into some serious staffing issues as soon as the next day................is that patient abandonment when a nursing staff quits like that? Perhaps the BON and the courts can decide that. I'm not 100% sure, but I do 100% wholeheartedly support the Filipino nurses. I hope local and state nurses support them as well.
    Last edit by Tweety on Mar 25, '07
  11. by   lllliv
    Quote from Tweety
    Perhaps the BON and the courts can decide that. I'm not 100% sure, but I do 100% wholeheartedlysupport the Filipino nurses.

    :yeahthat: i'm not ready to condemn these nurses for the decision they made. i don't think it was abandonment at all.
  12. by   Tweety
    Quote from lizz
    Does anybody care about these kids? For crying out loud, if you're gonna be a jerk and quit with no notice, at least quit on a week day so they have a better chance of finding other staff to take care of those kids.

    :typing

    I agree. A dramatic walk out more than likely resulted in substandard, and perhaps one can argue dangerous care for these kids.

    However, I doubt their walk-out was a knee jerk reaction. It was planned and thought out.

    I wonder though if walking up to their employer and saying we're all quitting within two weeks would have given them a heads up to prepare for the charges of abandoment, and they would have made the courts demand they stay (no union I presume to prevent this). etc. etc.

    We're not angels. I realize these people were in it only for the money and only to make things better for themselves, but it doesn't mean they didn't care about the kids and just abandoned them.
    Last edit by Tweety on Mar 25, '07
  13. by   Sheri257
    Quote from Tweety
    I agree. A dramatic walk out more than likely resulted in substandard, and perhaps one can argue dangerous care for these kids.

    However, I doubt their walk-out was a knee jerk reaction. It was planned and thought out.

    I wonder though if walking up to their employer and saying we're all quitting within two weeks would have given them a heads up to prepare for the charges of abandoment, and they would have made the courts demand they stay (no union I presume to prevent this). etc. etc.

    We're not angels. I realize these people were in it only for the money and only to make things better for themselves, but it doesn't mean they didn't care about the kids and just abandoned them.
    I've never heard of any employer being able to force someone to stay. You might have to pay a penalty if you have a contract, but they can't force you to stay.

    You just have to give the employer notice so they can hire more staff. If they don't hire more staff after you give them notice then, it's on the employer ... not you.

    But you can't create a situation where it's impossible to staff with no notice. 26 nurses resigned all within two days. That's why the whole thing was so stupid. They could have easily covered themselves by giving notice.

    In my opinion, this attorney didn't know what he was doing. He's an employment/immigration attorney. He thought he'd nailed them on some employment law violations so, it would be ok if they all resigned at once. He obviously wasn't familar with New York nursing laws and regulations.

    New York Board of Regents Rules:

    Unprofessional conduct for health professionals shall include:

    "... abandoning a professional employment by a group practice, hospital, clinic or other health care facility, without reasonable notice and under circumstances which seriously impair the delivery of professional care to patients or clients."

    http://www.op.nysed.gov/part29.htm

    And, I'm sorry ... but when this involves disabled kids on respirators, it is going to be game over with the court. It will take a miracle for them to win.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Mar 26, '07

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