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Florida mull how to ration ventilators



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No. 40
Old Oct 22, 2009, 07:23 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by dscrn View Post

Wonder what sort of plan is in placet o increase the number of Pedi vents??
A very good question considering that nationally, we don't even know how many vents there are. And, we are not going to know because the information is confidential for some reason...

http://www.rtmagazine.com/news/2009-08-21_01.asp

Originally Posted by www.rtmagazine.com
The US Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) contracted with the American Association for Respiratory Care (AARC) to perform a comprehensive inventory of mechanical ventilators in every hospital in the country. A survey is being taken to gain an accurate account of the number of ventilators that would be available in the event of a nationwide pandemic.

The Office of Preparedness and Response requested this inventory information “as the nation braces for the nH1N1 virus that may affect record numbers of Americans,” according to an announcement from AARC. The announcement goes on to explain, “Initial experience shows that many individuals are placed on ventilators as a result of this flu.”

All information gained from the survey will be kept in confidence and will not be available through the Freedom of Information Act. The AARC clarifies that no relocation of ventilators will be performed as a result of this survey; the information is sought so that the government can acquire or assist in augmenting current ventilator capacity.
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No. 41
Old Oct 22, 2009, 02:29 PM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by lamazeteacher View Post
I think oncologists must become more proactive regarding referrals to counseling/hospice for their "end of life" patients. Once they're hospitalized with end stage disease, it's time for "acceptance", yet patients, families, and friends haven't dealt with the earlier phases on "that road". Hospice has the best setup for dealing with emotional responses, that I've seen. It's important to include counseling when describing hospice services to patients and/or families. An inservice program by hospice is very valuable for any medical-surtgical unit or ICU.

I've occasionally heard health care professionals say they "don't believe in hospice", which must be their own personal attitude, but not the approach to take for patients who need to try out different modalities of care. When hospice only sees patients the last few days of their lives, their priority has to be pain relief, yet if they started care earlier there are many more services to offer - such as getting the DNR (saves hospital nurses doing that) and living wills, etc.
In this particular situation, hospice was consulted and that's when the family threatened a lawsuit because we were giving up on his wife.
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No. 42
from tewdles
Old Oct 23, 2009, 07:25 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
"In this particular situation, hospice was consulted and that's when the family threatened a lawsuit because we were giving up on his wife."

Families threatening a lawsuit because they were given information regarding the care options for their loved one...hhhmmm...don't think that is ever going to make it to court.
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No. 43
Old Oct 23, 2009, 11:27 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by mamamerlee View Post
It doesn't take Health Care reform to make reforms in health care....who will want to sit on the panels to decide which patients get the vents? And what happens in an acute crisis - say, auto accident, or burns?
Yes, I do not believe in futile care - and every time there is a 'bad' diagnosis there should be a counselling 'intervention' with the pt and family. But who gets the ultimate say-so?
WOW!
I'll sit on that panel and sleep well at night.

It's a good start and an excellent wake up to the excesses of our society and inability to accept death. Come off it, we're all dying -some are closer than others! It's no secret!

Let the flu victims have the vents, the terminal one's go and the repeated vent patients who continue to smoke wait in line.
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No. 44
Old Oct 23, 2009, 11:29 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by tewdles View Post
"In this particular situation, hospice was consulted and that's when the family threatened a lawsuit because we were giving up on his wife."

Families threatening a lawsuit because they were given information regarding the care options for their loved one...hhhmmm...don't think that is ever going to make it to court.
The hospital didn't care if it might make it to court or not. We were given a gag order to not speak of code status to patient or family by administration, and pt remained full code, vented with multiple gtt's while the cancer took over her body, and eventually killed her.
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No. 45
from morte
Old Oct 23, 2009, 11:41 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by geekgolightly View Post
The hospital didn't care if it might make it to court or not. We were given a gag order to not speak of code status to patient or family by administration, and pt remained full code, vented with multiple gtt's while the cancer took over her body, and eventually killed her.
in that case, the hospital was part of the problem and can eat the bill!
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No. 46
Old Oct 23, 2009, 11:41 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
What a surprise! The patient died...OH MY, how could this have been prevented?

Insanity; repeating the same things expecting different outcomes...
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No. 47
Old Oct 23, 2009, 02:31 PM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by morte View Post
in that case, the hospital was part of the problem and can eat the bill!
The problem is even a threatened lawsuit can cost the hospital immensely in defensive medicine, defensive charting, and investigation, not to mention bad, bad PR.

Please see the case of Terry Shiavo in Florida.

Also, in Sarasota, FL (was it in the 90s), there was the 12 year old brain dead child, whom the patients refused to have the vent discontinued. A very brittle diabetic who had be acutely ill for several days, she was brought to the ER in diabetic crisis. Within several hours she went into a coma, an never came out. Despite the fact the family delayed getting her to the ER, the family blamed her condition on the facility and went public after the facility decided that she was brain dead and wanted to stop treatment. No one would accept the pt in transfer, and the facility had to foot the bill for home vent/care for the several weeks that she lived at home, before dying.

The facility is still having to deal with the family's lawyers and the family keeping it in the news.

Please also see treatment of healthcare workers in aftermath of Katrina. Though found innocent of criminal charges, there will continue to be effects on their jobs as well as multiple civil suits. Which translates into lawyer fees.

It's a good argument for "Loser pays all" laws.
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No. 48
Old Oct 24, 2009, 01:47 AM
Updated Oct 24, 2009 at 01:50 AM by lamazeteacher

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by geekgolightly View Post
In this particular situation, hospice was consulted and that's when the family threatened a lawsuit because we were giving up on his wife.
Was there a doctor's order to contact Hospice? That's necessary before they'll go in. If the person who brought the subject up initially didn't know the family's degree of denial, it certainly was not a team effort..... Obviously the family didn't know about Hospice's current practise - how some patients are on that caseload for years. Originally a patient couldn't be on any kind of chemo or radiation therapy, and have Hospice. Their knowledge of it, could have been that.

Obviously no lawsuit over the fact that Hospice was consulted would be won, but the family and hospital would waste a lot of energy (and money)due to it.

The family sure sounds like they needed a huge amount of therapy (to put it mildly). It's too bad, couldn't have done the patient any good - but then that may be the way that crew always functions.....
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No. 49
Old Oct 24, 2009, 02:09 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by CASTLEGATES View Post
What a surprise! The patient died...OH MY, how could this have been prevented?

Insanity; repeating the same things expecting different outcomes...
What I find most disturbing about this, is that the patient and her family weren't involved at the inception of a care plan that included Hospice. It seems the whole thing was bungled, everyone got bent out of shape and the "gag order" (which only a court of law can effectively enact) was a way to enforce a very aggressive family's expression of dissatisfaction.

When I (briefly) worked for a Hospice, I was told how often hospital staff more or less dumped difficult situations on them, without adequate preparation of patients or their families. One Hospice nurse got called in to admit patients to Hospice, who had not been told anything about that and instead of being amenable to the services provided, they were resistant. Ideally the Hospice nurse woulod be called in to a case presentation about the patient and there would be mutual care planning to carefully introduce the concept.

Unfortunately they're brought in mainly to deal with pain control at the lasy minute, when that's accelerated beyond the nurses or doctor's ability to deal with it. I was amazed by the high doses of narcotics that are given people, and thought they should have a say about that, but the patients I saw, were in no place mentally (due to the extreme pain) to do that rationally.
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