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Florida mull how to ration ventilators



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No. 30
from Charity
Old Oct 20, 2009, 03:55 PM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Florida is hardly the only state working on this. Most states have or will soon have such a plan. These were not done just for H1N1, but for any widespread medical crisis.

My hospital (a large one, at that!) has often run out of vents and had to borrow from another facility. We are having no problems with H1N1 at the moment. These shortages are just part of a normal working day with too many patients. Lord help us when the flu does arrive.
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No. 31
from diane227
Old Oct 21, 2009, 12:57 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Well, I can't wait to see everyone start to blame the President for this as they will you know. In addition, they better put on some additional security in that hospital cause some families are going to be MAD about this situation and someone is going to get hurt. In the United States we are expect that everything will be done for us. Although more and more you see people who have made end of life arrangements, some times that want something done first at least to see how it goes before they invoke their end of live orders. At least that is what I see. In this week alone I have had 4 patients on my unit who have been over 100 years old. And their family members are sitting beside their beds waiting for them to get better and go home. One guy, 103 years old, was driving up to six months ago. He wife is still living and she is 101.
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No. 32
Old Oct 21, 2009, 03:08 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by geekgolightly View Post
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. One can dream that this might set a precedent of sorts. We recently had a woman in the MICU for five long torturous months with end stage cancer. The origin was the uterus, but mets were to liver, lung and brain. There were lumps cropping up everywhere by the time all was said and done. levo was unreasonably high, dopamine was added very late in the game. Vented and sedated, TPN, horrific wounds which were cared for on a daily basis. For what??

The family threatened to sue us if we even mentioned DNR. Their insurance stopped paying at 60 days. We were completely stuck. When she finally went, her husband stopped the code after the third one that day.

Something HAS to be done about these situations.

I think oncologists must become more proactive regarding referrals to counseling/hospice for their "end of life" patients. Once they're hospitalized with end stage disease, it's time for "acceptance", yet patients, families, and friends haven't dealt with the earlier phases on "that road". Hospice has the best setup for dealing with emotional responses, that I've seen. It's important to include counseling when describing hospice services to patients and/or families. An inservice program by hospice is very valuable for any medical-surtgical unit or ICU.

I've occasionally heard health care professionals say they "don't believe in hospice", which must be their own personal attitude, but not the approach to take for patients who need to try out different modalities of care. When hospice only sees patients the last few days of their lives, their priority has to be pain relief, yet if they started care earlier there are many more services to offer - such as getting the DNR (saves hospital nurses doing that) and living wills, etc.
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No. 33
Old Oct 21, 2009, 07:07 PM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by hope3456 View Post
A shortage of money/resources is definately the problem. We 'working class' are struggling to pay for our health insurance/medical care and the reason that the costs are so high is, in part, b/c of the futile medical care being placed on the terminally ill. Much of this care is not compensated for and the costs are passed on to those of us who 'can' pay.
There is definitely always money for what the wealthy and powerful people of the world want to spend it on. I definitely disagree that there is any real lack of money or resources if the aforementioned definitely don't want there to be.
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No. 34
Old Oct 21, 2009, 07:11 PM

Default Re: H1N1 & a Rationing Plan in Florida
Originally Posted by flightnurse2b View Post
as a nurse who lives and works in south florida--the problem is that so many people get put on vents unnecessarily to begin with.. no one wants to let grammy die in peace, she has to have a vent, a PEG and be on dialysis and maybe by the 3rd code of the day someone in the family will say "stop!"

the TV commercials are clouded completely with 1-800-ambulance-chaser and 1-800-who-can-i-sue and we have so many risk managers at my hospital it will make your head spin!

anywho, i don't understand the reasons why we don't actually have enough vents--i think the problem is more of not enough ICU bed space and qualified nursing staff. especially since it's winter, and people come to FL for the winter, and a percent of them end up in the hospital.

i am certaintly in no place to decide who is worthy of a vent... but if hospitals have to make the choice to keep a 95 year old who has end stage cancer and a 33 year old pregnant woman with the flu on a vent, one would hope they would make the choice to end the futile attempts to keep someone who is already suffering on a ventilator... i suppose that is what this article is saying?
Maybe the snowbirds could lug a vent with them.
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No. 35
from dscrn
Old Oct 21, 2009, 07:26 PM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
From what current news releases are saying...it's the sector of the population under 24 who are most often being admitted to hsp-with the most serious symptoms. Wonder what sort of plan is in placet o increase the number of Pedi vents??
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No. 36
from dcampbell
Old Oct 21, 2009, 08:33 PM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by dscrn View Post
From what current news releases are saying...it's the sector of the population under 24 who are most often being admitted to hsp-with the most serious symptoms. Wonder what sort of plan is in placet o increase the number of Pedi vents??
If there already isn't a plan in place, isn't it maybe too late now?
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No. 37
Old Oct 21, 2009, 09:08 PM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
There is definitely always money for what the wealthy and powerful people of the world want to spend it on. I definitely disagree that there is any real lack of money or resources if the aforementioned definitely don't want there to be.
Time for a "pity party" to begin?

OR........
You could access and have an accountant study the budget for your community and state, go to Board of Supervisors' Meetings and let them know your concerns about too little being allocated for hospitals to have enough equipment during the pandemic. If you throw generalities around such as your above quote, there's little about which the sups can take action. I'd imagine that FLA as well as many other states, is getting less money in real estate taxes, due to deflated home and business values; and therefore most programs suffer.

Also, the budget at your facility bears watching, if you want more resources. Sometimes the blockage in getting needed supplies can be that the manager for the department that purchases needed supplies, is a wimp, or on leave and the assistant is a wimp. But when you or someone else goes to Board meetings there, it would be best for only 2 employees to go, or it may look like an insurrection and nothing on the agenda will be discussed.
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No. 38
from rngolfer53
Old Oct 22, 2009, 02:44 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Originally Posted by geekgolightly View Post
I don't know who has paid or will pay, quite honestly. They don't tell us that. We all assumed that the husband would declare bankruptcy as the bill would far exceed his income. He was by no means a wealthy man. They were both teachers.

Suffice to say, this was never a consideration for him.
(emphasis added)

This is a big contributor to medical futility. When there is an all but complete disconnection between incurring costs and paying them, there is all but unlimited demand for services.

Everyone is happy to spend other people's money.
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No. 39
from tewdles
Old Oct 22, 2009, 06:38 AM

Default Re: Florida mull how to ration ventilators
Please do not equate medical futility to ability to pay...they are completely seperate and different issues.
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