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| No. 10 | 
Oct 29, 2009, 01:06 PM
 re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster Originally Posted by eriksoln  My school used the "personal analysis" of who will pass boards first time and who will not. Once a couple agreed on someone being at risk for not passing first time................HERE COMES THE PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE poking and criticizing.
A lot of people have their spirit broken and just tolerate it. If it happens early, most will move on to another program. I've seen students who are on their 3rd program before.
These people though are fighting for good reason. The school waited much too long to decide it wanted to cut the ties with them. Obviously a money making decision.
I think you are absolutely correct. This is definitely passive aggressive behavior and it should not be tolerated in the workplace or a school of nursing. And yes, if these students were not capable of finishing the program, they should have been counseled early on in the program and dropped in the beginning, not at the end.
It may not be a money grab, but it does make one wonder. Originally Posted by Cindy-san But yeah, I don't understand why these students weren't counseled prior to expulsion about poor grades.
ITA! When schools are competitive anyway and only admit a percentage of the students who apply, it seems to make sense to try to retain those who have been admitted. I have seen the attitude of "weed 'em out" in schools that only use GPA as a criteria for admission and perhaps those schools need to change their standards. Yes, it's time-consuming to read admission essays and do personal interviews, but wouldn't that be a better use of faculty (and student) time than to admit someone to a program and then watch him/her fail?
I would also think that a one-year RN program would be incredibly intense; however, shouldn't the standards be high so as to ensure that only the most qualified and potentially successful candidates are admitted? One would think that because this sort of program is intense and demanding, that faculty would have an incentive to see students succeed. This sort of thing will certainly discourage students from entering that program in the future---and if it is not a good program, maybe that is a good thing. Originally Posted by hope3456 I had a clinical instructor who was proud of herself for 'weeding someone out' from each of her clinical rotations. She bragged about it.  Good example of what Eriksoln was saying about passive aggressive behavior. Obviously a student who is clinically unsafe should be "weeded out" as should a student who lacks work ethic or clearly has knowledge deficits that cannot be overcome by changing study habits, changing course load or tutoring. But this attitude of "weeding someone out" just to hang onto bragging rights and the reputation of being a "tough" instructor is asinine.
I do agree that schools have growing pains, especially in the first few years of a new program. But don't take it out on the students. Again, Eriksoln is absolutely right in saying that too many students roll over and take the abuse. Some get into different programs. Some quit altogether. This kind of behavior is bullying and all it does is encourage students to become nurses who either bully or get bullied in the workplace.
I am glad the students are standing up for their rights. It will be interesting to see how this case plays out.
 | | Advertisement Sponsored Links | | | | No. 11 |
Oct 29, 2009, 01:36 PM
re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster
That's just it though, Moogie. It looks horrible for schools that have so many people fail out or have low board pass rates. This is a new program. They should be bending over backwards to get a great graduate and pass rate. Granted, everyone might not still succeed, but they should still make a serious attempt.
Last minute failing rates like that should scare everyone away. Concerns about student's abilities need to be addressed from the get-go. Otherwise, why would they be keeping all these students who they are either not training well enough or are just not cutting it? Obviously only to take their money.
| | No. 12 |
Oct 29, 2009, 02:33 PM
re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster
I am taking a class right now where we have had presentations, things to turn in, papers etc and I have not received one grade yet. No one has. Now the class is over and I have no idea what grade I will get. I imagine the instructor will pull it out of thin air like she has the rest of the class.
This is my first grad class wondering if it should be my last. The unprofessional air in so many nursing settings has really thrown me for a loop. Anyone with a grad degree want to give me insight. Is it time to cut and run. I am not young but not too old to get into a professional job. I reall like a profesional atmosphere. Is it possible in nursing?
| | No. 13 |
Oct 29, 2009, 02:39 PM
re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster
They tried to make me quit because I was male. They managed to get 2 of 4 males out. We went to the dean and nothing happened. My cousin was kicked out of a program and did the attorney route and was accepted back in. Nurses eating their young for ya! Like the rules don't apply.
The real reason is the NCLEX scores drop and they panic, weed out the bottom students in hopes to raise the stats. My school kicked over half out when they dropped to #2 in the state for passing NCLEX; faculty were micturated!
| | No. 14 |
Oct 29, 2009, 03:00 PM
re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster Originally Posted by misplaced1 I am taking a class right now where we have had presentations, things to turn in, papers etc and I have not received one grade yet. No one has. Now the class is over and I have no idea what grade I will get. I imagine the instructor will pull it out of thin air like she has the rest of the class.
This is my first grad class wondering if it should be my last. The unprofessional air in so many nursing settings has really thrown me for a loop. Anyone with a grad degree want to give me insight. Is it time to cut and run. I am not young but not too old to get into a professional job. I reall like a profesional atmosphere. Is it possible in nursing?
Just finish. Pick your school according to.........well, its convenience for you. Close to home or where you want to live? Hours right? Cost acceptable?
If you float around the boards looking at how instructors/educators are thin, you'll see why many programs are so........poorly run.
They lack guidance/leadership. The compensation for working in these schools is not up to snuff, hence..........they can not attract competent administrators.
You will run into problems at any facility, there are very few/zero programs out there that you are going to be happy with from start to finish. I knew someone in school who was on his.....oh, 6th or 7th school and he finally realized.........they all are terrible.
| | No. 15 |
Oct 29, 2009, 03:05 PM
re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster Originally Posted by misplaced1 I am taking a class right now where we have had presentations, things to turn in, papers etc and I have not received one grade yet. No one has. Now the class is over and I have no idea what grade I will get. I imagine the instructor will pull it out of thin air like she has the rest of the class.
This is my first grad class wondering if it should be my last. The unprofessional air in so many nursing settings has really thrown me for a loop. Anyone with a grad degree want to give me insight. Is it time to cut and run. I am not young but not too old to get into a professional job. I reall like a profesional atmosphere. Is it possible in nursing?
I had a similar experience in a grad school class. At first I thought it was just me because I had been out of school and away from clinical practice for a while---then I started to hear concerns from other students. Ultimately, I decided that the program was not a good fit for me. It is indeed a royal PITA to have to start all over but you will get a better education from a school that meets your standards than one that does not. I've always said that an education is far more important than a degree.
I do believe that it is possible to have a professional atmosphere in a nursing job as well as in nursing school. I've been fortunate enough to have worked in a very professional institution; however, at the time I had no idea how good it was. I've since had some less-than-professional environments and I have had difficulty coping, particularly with managers who have been satisfied with an unprofessional status quo. When I found myself in an unprofessional work environment, at first I thought it was just me, that maybe I had been "spoiled" by my previous experiences. And then I realized, nope, I was in a toxic place and could either put up and shut up or leave. I chose the latter.
Please check your PM's, Misplaced1, k?
| | No. 16 |
Oct 29, 2009, 03:26 PM
re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster Originally Posted by eriksoln Just finish. Pick your school according to.........well, its convenience for you. Close to home or where you want to live? Hours right? Cost acceptable?
If you float around the boards looking at how instructors/educators are thin, you'll see why many programs are so........poorly run.
They lack guidance/leadership. The compensation for working in these schools is not up to snuff, hence..........they can not attract competent administrators.
You will run into problems at any facility, there are very few/zero programs out there that you are going to be happy with from start to finish. I knew someone in school who was on his.....oh, 6th or 7th school and he finally realized.........they all are terrible.
I agree that there is no perfect program, not in nursing, not in any field. There are also stressors that are unique to nursing yet are experienced, in some way, by everyone from the wannabe CNA to the prospective PhD. I don't think there's a way of getting around those stressors in any program. Yet, some programs are simply stressful and others are downright toxic. And there can be toxic people in otherwise functional systems. How does one differentiate between "normal" nursing school stress and toxic stress? And how can students learn coping skills to deal with negative environments or know when to get out?
One commonality I have noticed in toxic workplaces/school environments is that there was a tremendous lack of communication and support for new people. The worst places in which I have worked provided little or no orientation and I felt thrown into whatever position I held. I think toxic places set up their employees (or students) for failure and do not permit anyone who does not have the "put up, shut up" attitude to thrive.
You are right in that nursing faculty are often spread way too thin. I have been consistently surprised at the number of nursing faculty who do not have any background in education. Just because someone is clinically competent does not mean that he/she is able to teach. (Uh, I am going back to school with the goal of going back to teaching. What am I getting into again???)
I must add that, because of the proliferation of MS programs, especially those that are offered online, it is much easier to get into a different program if one finds that one's original program does not suit one's needs. Had there been other options available when I started grad school, I would have been finished long ago.
| | No. 17 |
Oct 29, 2009, 04:00 PM
re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster Originally Posted by Cindy-san It looks horrible for schools that have so many people fail out or have low board pass rates.
The problem is - at least here in California - only the pass rates are published by the BRN, NOT the graduation rates.
I don't know if the BRN even tracks graduation/dismissal ratings... judging by the very heavy emphasis on NCLEX preparation, I'd guess perhaps not. Why else would they have these all-or-nothing, make-it-or-break-it comprehensive finals/NCLEX predictors just days before graduation? They seem much more concerned that someone will graduate and then fail the NCLEX than they do that someone will be dismissed just days before pinning/graduation.
This is my third time through college... and the first time I ever experienced anything like this.
| | No. 18 |
Oct 29, 2009, 05:16 PM
 re: Five sue over nursing-school ouster Originally Posted by eriksoln Just finish. Pick your school according to.........well, its convenience for you. Close to home or where you want to live? Hours right? Cost acceptable?
If you float around the boards looking at how instructors/educators are thin, you'll see why many programs are so........poorly run.
They lack guidance/leadership. The compensation for working in these schools is not up to snuff, hence..........they can not attract competent administrators.
You will run into problems at any facility, there are very few/zero programs out there that you are going to be happy with from start to finish. I knew someone in school who was on his.....oh, 6th or 7th school and he finally realized.........they all are terrible.
I'm sorry, but when someone is on their third, or 6th or 7th program, I have to believe it is time for that person to look in the mirror. Not all schools are terrible, and not all students are terrible, but I think there are some of both. I know that we don't have all the details of this particular story, but I can tell you that as an instructor there are often many counseling sessions that take place before dismissal takes place. I have had occasion to counsel a student over the course of many weeks, writing new goals for success each time only to eventually have the student fail. It then seems that I let that person get "so close" and then not let them finish. It was just the opposite, I gave that student the time to improve, and show me that they could practice safely, and when they could not, I had to let them go. My job is to prepare nurses who are knowledgeable, and able to practice safely.
Someone said that, basically, nursing teachers aren't paid well so the schools don't attract the best and therefore the schools are poorly run. There are a number of reasons that nurses go into teaching, and money is not the reason. However, I work with 8 other instructors/professors, and no one is "out to get the student." I have never heard any teacher I have worked with brag about weeding out students (I am not saying it doesn't happen somewhere, just not at my school.) In fact, there is often a sense of loss when a student fails.
I think that a good number of students come to school with an idealized version of what a nurse is and does, and when they find out that it is a lot of hard work, they are not prepared for the journey.
I just counseled 3 students this past week (we counsel every student after a failed exam), and 2 of them admitted that they did not keep up with the reading, and did not study adequately for the test. They also did not use the computer programs that we have available to them (even from their home!) And last of all, none of them scheduled a meeting with an instructor prior to the exam to discuss anything they did not understand. Every teacher at our school has an open door policy. I give out my email, home, cell, and office numbers to all students, and tell them they may call me anytime to ask questions, or express concerns. Rarely does a student take me up on it.
Lastly, not everyone is cut out to be a nurse. Many see it as a stable job with stable pay in an unstable economy, and they have told me so. So, I am not going to be too upset when someone doesn't get a degree in nursing just because they paid for it. I want more for those taking care of my loved ones and yours.
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