Dentists, EMTs, Pharmacists, oh, my! - non-nurses giving shots - Page 5Register Today!
- Aug 14, '09 by Mas CatoerNurse 2009 and PageRespiratoy were having good debate. Skill of giving shot in general, should be backed up by sufficient knowledge of anatomy physiology and pharmacology. But in practical, giving shot is very easy procedure to learn and done. That is why some specific inj with well known possible manageable reaction can be delegated with proper training (i.e. insulin shot). But, giving shots in terms of public must be supported by stronger consideration. The concern to be taken is if the drug have very strong possibility and statistically known to cause anaphylaxis reaction which may kill person in seconds. Most protein derivatives are having anaphylaxis risk.
So then (I think) if the flu vaccines are officially declared as non anaphylactic agents, then its ok to delegate the shots with proper training.
That my free opinion. But why not you guys check it out with the local health policy. Maybe they have the legal issues about that.
Just my two cents :-)
Mas CatoerLast edit by Mas Catoer on Aug 14, '09
- Aug 14, '09 by wacberryThe problem will be when someone has a reaction and dies! I am OK with the EMT, but the dentist is questionable and the pharmacist definitely not. Face it anyone can be trained to give an injection. But can they assess the situation if the person has a reaction. I guess they dial 911, hope for the best and fend off the lawyers!
- Aug 14, '09 by Mas CatoerIn that circumstance I definitely agree with you. Most professional works comes with all its consequencies and responsibilities. Just hope everyone of us always know what we are doing. Be accountable for what we have said and done.
- Aug 14, '09 by nurse2009Quote from wacberryThe problem will be when someone has a reaction and dies! I am OK with the EMT, but the dentist is questionable and the pharmacist definitely not. Face it anyone can be trained to give an injection. But can they assess the situation if the person has a reaction. I guess they dial 911, hope for the best and fend off the lawyers!
Thank you that is what im thinking you said it perfectly.
VERY GOOD POINT
but on the other hand a dentist and pharmacist both go through pre med. Is that enough?
Something to think about
- Aug 15, '09 by okchug...you trust minimally trained MAs to give shots (of all sorts) every day in the docs office but you don't trust highly trained PharmDs, DDSs, or EMTs! I'm not trying to start a fight but geez, most people giving shots and passing meds around here (offices and LTC) are not nurses anyway!Last edit by okchug on Aug 15, '09 : Reason: play nice
- Aug 15, '09 by MedSurgeMessQuote from wacberryPharamcist at most smaller rural hospitals are on the code team. Also, believe me, pharmacist know way more about drug interactions and reactions than most nurses do. At least lets hope so. And the dentist does injections in their office daily, and they have probably dealt with anaphalaxis as well. I know as nurses we'd like to think that we're the only ones who can do certain things, but the reality is that some tasks can be delegated as long as the licensing authority has it covered.The problem will be when someone has a reaction and dies! I am OK with the EMT, but the dentist is questionable and the pharmacist definitely not. Face it anyone can be trained to give an injection. But can they assess the situation if the person has a reaction. I guess they dial 911, hope for the best and fend off the lawyers!
- Aug 15, '09 by cjcsoon2brnI understand that in our healthcare system we have this concept that certain tasks belong to certain careers and to have them done by someone else is simply unacceptable. We should all try to "own our job" and be proud of what we do and such but we need to realize that "owning" your career does not meaning having a monopoly on certain tasks that you do in the capacity of your job. I think that its good that we question what the qualifications are of anyone who is giving us a flu shot or anything else related to our health for that matter but at the same time we need to be realistic in our expectations. If I go to a flu shot clinic I am probably not going to expect to see a physician be the one who gives me the shot, I realize that a nurse or someone else may very well be the person who gives me the shot but I expect that someone with the license (and experience) should be on the premises even if they only function in an administrative position. I think that if the person giving the shot is a healthcare professional with at least a basic foundation of the anatomy, physiology and pharmacology as well as being able to demonstrate competency in this particular area (that means being able to explain what they are doing, how it works and what potentially could happen) then they should be fine to give the shots in my opinion. There is a huge difference between an EMT or a pharmacist giving you your flu shot and a cafeteria worker or school secretary (as someone mentioned.) That's just my two cents...
- Aug 15, '09 by Heogog53I've done several seasons of flu clinics. It's more than a simple shot and go. The patients have to fill out their paperwork, which asks about their current health, allergies to eggs, and then there is a separate informed consent. Let me also remind you that pneumovax injections are also usually given at flu clinics.
the way it works is that there is usually a huge line at least an hour before the first shot is given. The RN reviews the paperwork, takes the money, gives the shots. Repeat that times at least 1-200 people over a four hour period and it's work. Working with a large peds population and having to equate mls with kgs has to be taken into account as well.
I am wondering what kind of scope of practice acts that the various other non medical people being trained to give meds are infringing on? Is the Gov gonna pass a lack of liability law for this flu season, so if something goes wrong these "others" are granted immunity or something?
I think that having a MA give injections/do blood draws, etc depends on what state or commonwealth you live in, and what the practice acts allow.
A dentist, EMT or a pharmacist giving shots I can live with. They have all had a fair amount of training. "Civilians" who don't know about reviewing paperwork/getting consent, etc- I'm not so sure of that. Doing one shot here or there isn't so bad, but with the huge flocks surrounding you at a flu clinic, drawing up the meds, checking for aspiration, etc every couple of minutes- that's pressure.
The other problem is communication with the non-native English speakers, the moms with several cranky kids, and the like.
And, I must say, that in NC, the pay for doing flu shot clinics actually went down every year. It started at 16/hr, dropped to 15 and the last year I did it, the pay was down to 13/hr- not worth it for all the stress of getting all the stuff, finding your clinic, setting up and then going pedal to the metal for four hours straight, cleaning it all up and taking the spare/leftover materials back to the agency, as well as having to count all the money, making sure it's correct and changing it to a money order....It's more like making 9 bucks an hour, cos they didn't pay for the pick up and drop off.
T'any rate- flu clinics are intense and full of noise and distractions. If the Commonwealth of Mass can get the set ups/take downs streamlined, THAT will help a lot!
Just running my mind again! LOL
- Aug 15, '09 by misswoosieQuote from nerdtonurse?From what I have read the US govt plan on using some bill designed for pandemics to enforce vaccination.This means that you won't have any comeback to the drug company if you have side effects, and look what happened in the 70s with the swine flu vaccinations.http://www.boston.com/news/health/ar..._campaign=8315
While the article touts that they are going to "deputize" dentists, EMTs, and pharmacists into giving "the flu vaccine" the one thing they don't point out is that there's still not a vaccine for swine flu because it's mutating too fast; current strains are showing increasing resistance to tamiflu and antivirals.
What will be interesting to watch is if the big pharmacies will allow their employees to give the shots -- it's one thing if it's nurses from the health department or private contractors -- but using their employees opens their corporations up to liability. Can't you see the ads now? "Did you get the flu shot from an untrained pharmacist and suffer a reaction. Call us at 1-800-SUE-4SHOTS and get money for your pain and suffering NOW."
There is inc data to suggest that Tamiflu can be quite unsafe, I believe mostly in children, AND fairly ineffective.
- Aug 15, '09 by misswoosieQuote from KyrshamarksErr-pharmacists don't give shots in the UK, not saying they couldn't -but they don'tPharmacists all over the world routinely give shots. In Europe, you doctror will give you a script for an ABX injection and you go to the pharmacy and the pharmacist will give you the shot. I have lived and worked all over the world and seen this. In Asia, South and Central America, in Europe. Get real people. it is a shot, thats all. You train families to give shots to their kids and loved ones regularlly...what difference is it.