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Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care



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No. 10
Old Oct 14, 2009, 05:32 PM

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
You can't be serious in saying all the old folks should go home. They are not just old, they are sick. Most families have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to survive. They wouldn't be able to stay home or have the skills needed to take care of their loved ones.
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No. 11
from beerose
Old Oct 14, 2009, 05:55 PM

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
Originally Posted by CASTLEGATES View Post
the world will be so much better without for profit nursing homes like Genesis. Decent countries take their parents in when they're old and don't send them off to decubiti hell.

If you know how ruthless some of these companies can be when it comes to money, life and death, you'd change your mind about NH as well.

My thoughts? get rid of em; it'll take our communities a couple decades to learn to cope and absorb the problem but there's no need to house family for a better selfish quality of life. They're our family! When they're too ill, it's time to go. All of the saved money can go for elderly bus services to do the appointment game.

Notice also how doctors prey on elderly...since when is a mole removal needed for a 90 year old? Insane....leave em at home with family and let them go with family with dignity. Stop the hospital doctor visits for profit and open bus services with the saved billions. I certainly don't want to burden the government when I'm old and no longer able to care for myself...let me die and find what's next!

Castlegate, not everyone has a family to care for them. Your post is a half thought. Many of elderly have dementia and cannot be left alone while family members work. My mother kept her father (with dementia) home for years and then he started leaving the house when she was at work. If you look at the stats, the majority of our elderly in the US do live with family when they are old, but some elderly do not want to live with their kids and some need medical help. Where would you transport your proposed bus service of the elderly with dementia? I too am willing to die when I'm old and no longer able to care for myself, most people are, the trouble is the body often hangs on until the last brain cell is long gone.
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No. 12
from karenchad
Old Oct 16, 2009, 10:32 AM

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
My mother has alzheimer's is is no longer able to live at home alone- I do not want her in a NH especially a genesis NH. My sibling and I thought we could some how care for her in one of our homes. we all a s mentioned befor have Jobs as we are not independenly wealthy. So me being the nurse in the family asked some of the social workers at work for ideas and suggestions and information ( i didn't know where to begin even being a staff nurse) My thoughts were care at home- a medical day care will the designated family memeber was at work. After doing some research- did you know that there is VERY little if anything medicare provides for medical day care ( to keep a person at home or in a family member's home) but if you want to liquidate the patients assets( home, savings) and allow them to keep only $2,000?/month they qualify for medicaid and a nursing home. This is how screwed up( deceiptfully money making )our system is- it is estimated that it costs approxamatily $6,000/mo to keep a resident in a NH vs. the cost of an adult medical day care $3,000/mo (which has licensed nurses on staff for med administration, meals, activities- PT, OT, Speech therapy plus are able to go home each day and live with their families) Medicare- doesn't pay for this!! Medicare does pay for meals on wheels, senior bus services but no companion, nuring assistant sitting while at work- go figure!! If you were to put mom or dad in a NH their home gets signed over to the NH for their room and board, if mom or day only lives 1-2 years and the house is worth say $140,000 the NH keeps the profit!!! if the home is worth more and mom or dad lives 1-2 years NH keppes the profit- PARTY TIME at the residents expense.
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No. 13
Old Oct 16, 2009, 06:02 PM

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
Check your facts before you spout off. Many of yours are incorrect.
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No. 14
Old Oct 16, 2009, 07:04 PM

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
[quote=karenchad;39 If you were to put mom or dad in a NH their home gets signed over to the NH for their room and board, if mom or day only lives 1-2 years and the house is worth say $140,000 the NH keeps the profit!!! if the home is worth more and mom or dad lives 1-2 years NH keppes the profit- PARTY TIME at the residents expense.[/QUOTE]


I think you are very misinformed. I don't know if all the states work the same for medicaid but this thread is about Indiana and I can assure you that this is NOT the way it is here.

Indiana requires you to have no more than $1500 in assetts prior to qualifying for medicaid. If you have a home, you are required to sell that and use those funds to pay privately for your care (after all why should someone have tons of private funds but refuse to use those funds to pay for their own care). If you sold your home for $140,000 you would pay the bill privately every month until you were down to $1500, then you would be eligible to appy for medicaid. If you had $140,000, stayed for one month, paid the bill for $6000 and died...your family would still have your $134,000.
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No. 15
from karenchad
Old Oct 16, 2009, 10:32 PM

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
to nascar nurse- the social worker I talked to worked in the LTC facility I worked in- she told me the only way to keep my mothers home from being signed over to a NH/LTC if this was the route my family and I wanted to take was to have it "gifted" to a family member. My mother is too mentally incompacitated at this point to sign any thing for it to be legal. I told this social worker I wanted medical day care and she said MEDICARE( elderly) doesn't pay for this, I checked this out and she was right. MEDICAID ( aka POVERTY LEVEL) does, it pays 100%. With my mother's MEDICARE- and survivor benefits from my dad, my family and I would have to come up with out of pocket- $2,000/ month to put my mother in a medical day care which is not affordable- my mother would have to liquidate her assets= to give up her home, my father's small social security pension and her survivor benefits=health insurance only to reduce her to below $2,000/mo to qualify for MEDICAID. There is no refund should she pass way and be in a NH.
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No. 16
Old Oct 16, 2009, 10:51 PM
Updated Oct 16, 2009 at 10:57 PM by Nascar nurse

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
Originally Posted by karenchad View Post
to nascar nurse- the social worker I talked to worked in the LTC facility I worked in- she told me the only way to keep my mothers home from being signed over to a NH/LTC if this was the route my family and I wanted to take was to have it "gifted" to a family member. My mother is too mentally incompacitated at this point to sign any thing for it to be legal. I told this social worker I wanted medical day care and she said MEDICARE( elderly) doesn't pay for this, I checked this out and she was right. MEDICAID ( aka POVERTY LEVEL) does, it pays 100%. With my mother's MEDICARE- and survivor benefits from my dad, my family and I would have to come up with out of pocket- $2,000/ month to put my mother in a medical day care which is not affordable- my mother would have to liquidate her assets= to give up her home, my father's small social security pension and her survivor benefits=health insurance only to reduce her to below $2,000/mo to qualify for MEDICAID. There is no refund should she pass way and be in a NH.
Like I said, maybe different states just work that much different?!? It would be highly illegal and highly immoral for us to just keep all of this profit if a resident was to die.

Also, in this state.. you can not just "gift" a family member your home. The office of medicaid looks back at finances for the past 5 or 7 years (don't remember which exactly). If someone were to "gift" their home immediately prior to entering a long term care facility this would still be regarded as income and would still be required for payment. (Of course, I have seen many cases where families go to see an attorney and money magical disappears, but I am not an attorney and don't know how they make this happen - probably a whole other thread ).

Care to share which state you are in?


P.S. Maybe that is a good thought for you. Maybe you could get a consultation with a eldercare attorney. They often are able to provide some good guidance on how to best handle situations like this.
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No. 17
from NRSKarenRN
Old Oct 17, 2009, 08:59 AM
Updated Oct 17, 2009 at 05:38 PM by NRSKarenRN

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
Medicare (federal gov. program) is designed for acute care treatment, not custodial care to maintain activities of daily living. As such, Medicare pays on 100% first 20 days in a skilled nursing home with copays thereafter and stops paying after 100 days.

Medicaid is joint federal and state program with 50/50 cost sharing and is meant for those with limited financial income to have basic health care provided. Each state chooses the level of Medicaid benefits it will provide, so programs not exactly alike in all states. For those over age 65 and disabled adults who can not provide own care, medicaid covers nursing home level care when person no longer has financial means to pay for inpatient care.
See: Overview Medicaid Eligibility


What karenchad and Nascar Nurse discussing are spending down assets to qualify for government paying for care. In US we expect that personal assets be used to pay for care prior to relying on government for assistance.

Under Medically Needy programs:
The option to have a "medically needy" program allows states to extend Medicaid eligibility to additional qualified persons who may have too much income to qualify under the mandatory or optional categorically needy groups. This option allows them to "spend down" to Medicaid eligibility by incurring medical and/or remedial care expenses to offset their excess income, thereby reducing it to a level below the maximum allowed by that State's Medicaid plan. States may also allow families to establish eligibility as medically needy by paying monthly premiums to the State in an amount equal to the difference between family income (reduced by unpaid expenses, if any, incurred for medical care in previous months) and the income eligibility standard.
It also involves Estate Recovery
People with Medicare are notified of the Medicaid estate recovery program during their initial application for Medicaid eligibility and annual redetermination process. Individuals in medical facilities (who do not return home) are sent a notice of action by their county Department of Social Services informing them of any intent to place a lien/claim on their real property. The notice also informs them of their appeal rights. Estate recovery procedures are initiated after the beneficiary's death.

The Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (OBRA) of 1993 defines estate and requires each state to seek adjustment or recovery of amounts correctly paid by the state for certain people with Medicaid. The state must, at a minimum, seek recovery for services provided to a person of any age in a nursing facility, intermediate care facility for the mentally retarded, or other medical institution. The State may at its option recover amounts up to the total amount spent on the individual's behalf for medical assistance for other services under the state's plan. For individuals age 55 or older, States are required to seek recovery of payments from the individual's estate for nursing facility services, home and community-based services, and related hospital and prescription drug services. States have the option of recovering payments for all other Medicaid services provided to these individuals.
Under Spousal Impoverishment the couple's home, household goods, an automobile, and burial funds are not included in the couple's combined resources. A Protected Resource Amount (PRA) is subtracted from joint assets.--- the Spousal Share, up to a maximum of $109,560 in 2009. PA in 2007, added $5,000/year to asset allowance so home repairs/appliance replacement costs would be available.


I've been involved in Medicaid home and community-based services for ~ 15 years now. PA has greatly expanded Medicaid Wavier services during this time to decrease # persons living long term in nursing homes.

Section 1915(c) Home and Community-Based Services Waivers: This section provides the Secretary authority to waive Medicaid provisions in order to allow long-term care services to be delivered in community settings. This program is the Medicaid alternative to providing comprehensive long-term services in institutional settings http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidStWaivProgDemoPGI/01_Overview.asp
Link lists all programs available per state: Waivers and Demonstrations through Map of States

There are programs for those over age 60, run by state Office of Aging, federal demonstration programs (like PACE for those over age 55) and physically disabled adult programs run under states medicaid program for ages 18-59.

My health system realigned our home health agency last year under home and community based programs:
Home Health agency provides acute episodic care while our PACE/LIFE program provides comprehensive long term care services empowering the frail elderly to age in place at home....this is the program I see becoming our national model.

Philosophy
The Program of All-inclusive Care for the Elderly (PACE) model is centered around the belief that it is better for the well-being of seniors with chronic care needs and their families to be served in the community whenever possible.
PACE serves individuals who are age 55 or older, certified by their state to need nursing home care, are able to live safely in the community at the time of enrollment, and live in a PACE service area. Although all PACE participants must be certified to need nursing home care to enroll in PACE, only about seven percent of PACE participants nationally reside in a nursing home. If a PACE enrollee does need nursing home care, the PACE program pays for it and continues to coordinate the enrollee's care.



Services
  • Delivering all needed medical and supportive services, the program is able to provide the entire continuum of care and services to seniors with chronic care needs while maintaining their independence in their homes for as long as possible. Care and services include:
  • Adult day care that offers nursing; physical, occupational and recreational therapies; meals; nutritional counseling; social work and personal care
  • Medical care provided by a PACE physician familiar with the history, needs and preferences of each participant
  • Home health care and personal care
  • All necessary prescription drugs
  • Social services
  • Medical specialists such as audiology, dentistry, optometry, podiatry, and speech therapy
  • Respite care
  • Hospital and nursing home care when necessary
http://www.npaonline.org/website/article.asp?id=12
http://www.medicare.gov/nursing/Alternatives/Pace.asp

LIFE/PACE Programs are limited to geographic zip code area assigned by government. These are programs I've been involved with

University of Pennsylvania School of Nursing LIFE program has been in existence since 1998 and serves as national model. I often referred pts to program as field RN in West Philadelphia area, PENN's territory.
www.lifeupenn.org/innovative%20care%20models%20award.pdf

Mercy Health celebrates opening of third LIFE
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No. 18
Old Oct 17, 2009, 10:01 AM

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
NsKaren--you have a wealth of knowledge, but just to clarify one point. Medicare pays for UP TO 100 days. People admitted to a skilled facility do not necessarily get 100 days of Medicare. They need to have a documented skilled need. Even the doctors and case managers around here don't get it. They tell the families the government will pay for 100 days so when they arrive at the facility, we have to undo all the 'teaching' they've received at the hospital.
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No. 19
from NRSKarenRN
Old Oct 17, 2009, 10:08 AM
Updated Oct 17, 2009 at 03:57 PM by NRSKarenRN

Default re: Cuts loom for nursing homes in Indiana .....learn about Alternatives to SNF care
You are correct. As with all services Medicare reimburses: hospital, SNF, rehab, home health they need to have a skilled need and not to have plateaued i.e. stable, no forward progress---once that is met payment ceases.

PA: Home and Community Based Services (HCBS) Waiver Programs: A manual for consumers and advocates...


Primary Programs for adults without mental health/developmental disabilities( MH/MR and DD have seperate wavier):


The AIDS Waiver provides home and community based services to eligible persons age 21 or older who have symptomatic HIV Disease or AIDS.


Services Available:
  • Home Maker Services
  • Home Health Visits
  • Home Health Aide
  • Specialized Medical Equipment and Supplies
  • Nutritional Consultations
  • Transition Services
Attendant Care for disabled adults age 18-59



Services Available May Include:
  • In-home personal assistance services
  • Supports Coordination services
  • Personal Emergency Response Systems (PERS)
  • Community Transition Services (available only through the Attendant Care Waiver)




PROGRAM ELIGIBILITY ASSISTANCE:
  • Medicaid 60+ Waiver: If the consumer (60 and older) is Medicaid eligible and the Area Agency on Aging has a service opening in the waiver, these services will be provided through the Medicaid 60+ Waiver.
  • Aging Block Grant Services: If the consumer (60 and older) is not Medicaid eligible, services are provided through the AAA block grant program if a service opening is available. The following services may be available in your local Area Agency on Aging planning and service area: Adult day care, counseling, personal assistance services, home health, personal care, protective services, home-delivered meals, transportation services, respite care, home support services.
  • Family CareGiver Support Program: This program is designed to assist families and other unpaid primary caregivers caring for functionally dependent older persons and adult relatives with chronic dementia. The goal of the program is to reduce caregiver stress and burden through benefits and resources counseling, access to support groups, care giving skills training and education. This may include support and financial reimbursement for expenses incurred in purchasing care giving related services. Reimbursement benefits are subject to co pay and are based on household income and size where the care receiving resident resides.
  • Care Managment: Care Management is provided to most consumers who receive Community Based Long Term Care Services. The AAA assigns a caseworker to the consumer. The caseworker works with the consumer/family to determine needs and how these needs are to be met. This is done through the use of a care plan that is tailored to the consumer's needs as identified by assessment. The care plan is developed and implemented with the input of the consumer. The caseworker orders the services and stays in contact with both consumer and service provider to ensure the services are provided as ordered, and they are effective in meeting the consumer's need.
THE ARRAY OF IN-HOME SERVICES MAY INCLUDE:
  • Home Health Services:
    • Nurses aide services such as performing assistance with activities of daily living, simple measures and tests, assisting with ambulating low level decubitus care, monitoring client condition, and other related services under the supervision of a registered nurse.
    • Nursing services to include consumer evaluations, development of a nursing plan, administration of physician prescribed medications, performing medical treatments as ordered by a physician, and performance of nursing duties as permitted under the Nurses Practice Act.
      • Occupational therapy by a licensed therapist.
      • Physical therapy by a licensed therapist.
      • Speech therapy by a licensed therapist.
    • Must be physician ordered. These services are normally paid for by Medicare, Medicaid or by another third party payer
  • Personal Assistance Services for daily living assistance such as bathing, dressing, grooming, and ambulating aid.
  • Home Support Activities such as labor intensive maintenance, cleaning, home management activities, and some non-overnight companion service. This service is normally provided in conjunction with home health care or personal assistance.
  • Medical Equipment, Supplies, and Adaptive Devices may be purchased or rented as deemed appropriate by the Area Agency on Aging. As with home health services, this is normally paid for by Medicare, Medicaid or by a third party payer and require a physician’s order.
  • Overnight Shelter or Supervision for the purpose of meeting a short-term need, or providing respite to caregivers.
  • Environmental Modifications completed for the purpose of making the home safe to live in.
  • Counseling Services by licensed or certified counselors for the purpose of assisting the consumer to cope with daily living. This is normally paid for by Medicare, Medicaid or by a third party payer.
  • Domiciliary Care is a program that allows the AAA to place a consumer in need of a living situation with personal care services. This is done after an assessment of need and a matching of the consumer's need with available domiciliary care homes. The AAA per state regulations licenses domiciliary care homes. The Commonwealth also makes payment to the domiciliary care provider under an agreement with DPW and the Social Security Administration for consumers who are eligible for Supplemental Security Insurance (SSI).


WHAT SERVICES ARE AVAILABLE?
Home health and personal care services, home support, attendant care, respite care, adult day care, transportation, home modifications, specialized medical equipment and supplies, counseling, extended state plan physician services, home delivered meals, personal emergency response, and companions. Care management and service coordination is provided by your local Area Agency on Aging.

WHO IS ELIGIBLE?

You must be a resident of Pennsylvania, at least 60 years of age, and meet all of the following criteria:
  • Require the level of care of a nursing facility; (A consumer must be assessed and determined eligible for nursing facility care. The determination is based on a medical evaluation conducted by the consumer’s physician, and an assessment conducted by the Area Agency on Aging.)
  • Can be served in the community by available health and social services;
  • Meet the financial requirements, as determined by your local County Assistance Office - income at or below $1911 per month (as of January 2008), which is 300% of the current Federal benefit rate and assets at or below $2,000 (an additional $6,000 resource disregard is allowed). The Department of Public Welfare, through the local County Assistance Office, assesses the income and assets of the consumer and determines the consumer’s initial and on-going financial eligibility for waiver. Only income and assets of the consumer are considered; and
  • Agree to the requirements and responsibilities of the program.

LIFE (Living Independence for the Elderly)

LIFE is a managed care program for frail elderly recipients who have been determined to need "nursing facility level of care" but wish to remain in their home and community as long as possible. LIFE provides a comprehensive all-inclusive package of services to meet their needs. The program is known nationally as the Program of All-inclusive Care for the Elderly (PACE). All of the PACE providers in Pennsylvania have the name "LIFE" in their name (Living Independence for the Elderly). The first programs were implemented in Pennsylvania in 1998.

To be eligible a person must be:
  • Age 55 or older
  • Nursing facility level of care eligible (through Area Agencies on Aging)
  • Eligible for Medical Assistance or able to private pay
  • Reside in an area served by a LIFE provider
  • Able to be safely served in the community as determined by a LIFE provider


Services that are available under the LIFE program include:
  • Primary Medical Care
  • Therapies
  • Personal Care
  • Pharmaceuticals
  • Recreational and Socialization Activities
  • Nursing
  • Monitoring
  • Meals
  • Transportation
  • Specialists
  • In-patient and Out-patient Hospital
  • Lab and X-ray
  • Eye glasses, hearing aides, and dentures
  • Emergency Care
  • Nursing Facility
Nursing and Social Work care is the back bone of all of these programs and WONDERFUL alternative to hospital career as they are provided mostly during daytime hours!
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