Aide Sucks Medicine Out Of Patient's Pain Patch - page 4

CUMBERLAND, Md. -- A West Virginia woman has been convicted of neglect after she admitted removing a nursing home patient's time-release pain patch and sucking out the medication. Megan Oglesbee,... Read More

  1. by   Spidey's mom
    IMBC - I appreciate your posts. I too have first-hand experience with illegal drug users and it is not a victimless crime.

    I do not feel sorry for people who knowingly get hooked up with a person who is selling ILLEGAL drugs and then get caught up in the "snare". Manufacturing meth is illegal. Excuse my high school slang, but "DUH".

    Meth is a horrible drug and should never be made by our pharmaceutical companies. The very first time a person uses meth, it changes your brain chemistry for the worse forever.

    Because some scumbags decide to make money off the black market selling illegal drugs does not mean illegal drugs should be made legal . . .just so those scumbags can magically not be committing a crime. Changing the definition of what the crime is and making it NOT a crime does not negate any of the negative consequences of addiction.

    I saw it yesterday when I helped in the delivery of a baby born to a meth user who was also high on pot. Baby had IUGR most likely directly related to meth use. "Mom" was tearful and shocked that someone might take her baby away but she should have thought of that every time she smoked or snorted or injected drugs into her system which then flowed directly into her baby's system.

    Our county has one of the highest percentages of babies born with meth in their system. That is just the beginning of a huge problem that society gets to pay for . . . .

    Addiction is real, the consequences are real, people are hurt.

    steph
    Last edit by Spidey's mom on Nov 20, '05
  2. by   jerseyboy
    Hello IMustBeCrazy,
    I welcome the chance to discuss this topic, especially with someone who disagrees. It gets boring preaching to the choir! That is what lobbying is all about, changing minds and attitudes. And if you don't change your mind, that's ok too.

    Yes there is certainly racial disparities when it comes to incarceration, especially for drug charges. According to Human Rights Watch, Blacks make up 62% of the incarcerated on drug charges while they are 13% of the population.

    You say that you treat those addicted to drugs and alcohol everyday, so I'm assuming that you work in a rehab center? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Given the fact that people who seek out your services are addicted to drugs and alcohol and are having serious effects from them, would make the point that they are not using safely. I presume that you don't see the "safe" user in your rehab center at all. Why would you? They are not having any problems from their drug and alcohol use. I know there are terrible consequences to be seen from drug and alcohol abuse, however, you are seeing these things with prohibition in place, so obviously making drugs illegal has not stopped this problem. And yes, drug use can be, and most of the time is, a victimless pasttime. Give the fact that over 50% of Americans have used an illegal drug in their lifetime.

    You ask me how I would account for several things. I will try to answer them all. About drug addicted mothers: Babies are born to drug addicted mothers and to alcohol addicted mothers as well. Addiction needs to fall under the control of medicine, not law enforcement. Many drug addicted mothers do not receive prenatal care due to the fact that they could go to jail if found to be using drugs. If the threat of law enforcement were removed from the equation, women would be free to seek help for their addiction while pregnant. Also, in this country abortion is legal, therefore, we as a society can't have it both ways. This same mother who will be demonized by society and sent to jail for taking drugs while pregnant, could have saved herself the trouble by aborting this same baby. This doesn't really make any sense to me.

    One reason people are robbed and murdered for drug money is because the drugs are marked up, sometimes as high as 17,000% and are sold on the black market. Rarely, do you hear of someone robbing and murdering for the money to buy a six pack of beer. That said, often times people who rob and murder are just plain criminals, period. Those people may happen to take drugs and drink alcohol as well, however, they would have robbed and murdered for any reason. Also, most of the drug related murders aren't from people using drugs, but by the people who sell drugs. When something is that profitable and is unregulated, there will be those who will do whatever it takes to keep the business going.

    Families are torn apart daily by a myriad of problems, drugs being just one of them. While drug use can tear a family apart, we have to ask ourselves, are we as a society willing to send someone to prison for many years because they have hurt their family? Will we start putting people in prison for adultry because it tears up a family?

    Again, the financial debt is typically incurred because of the price of the product being sold on the black market. Many people drink their paycheck away. While this is not acceptable, should we put them in prison for doing so? There are many costs that society incurs, incarceration being one. Are we as a society willing to pay the costs to incarcerate someone because they bought drugs and didn't harm a soul?

    On the job safety and productivity. Again, this would be someone not being a "safe" user if they showed up for work under the influence.

    Increased trips to the ER for a variety of things. I don't know the statistics of Er admissions for drug and alcohol use, however, I do know that most overdoses could be avoided if the people using the drug knew the concentration of the drug they were taking. Another problem with the black market is often times people buy adulterated drugs. Just like during alcohol prohibition. People would go blind and die from drinking wood alcohol. Bathtub Gin caused brain damage. These toxic drinks arose out of prohibition. Once prohibition was repealed, these disappeared and a regulated product was once again sold, and these problems vanished. However, I also know that the things you listed are just as prevelent in the obese as in the drug user, so, it is a slippery slope we climb when we start putting people in prison for using the ER too much.

    STD's and HIV. Well, promiscuous sex is just that, promiscuous sex. There are many people who practice this, not just people who take drugs. HIV, however, is a big problem with IV drug abusers. That is why it is so important to practice harm reduction with this population. Unfortunately, due to the draconian drug laws in this country, we are missing the boat on this one. Some states have enacted needle exchange programs for IV drug users, however, we are in the dark ages when it comes to HIV prevention in this population. Saying that people who use drugs are more promiscuous and spread STD and HIV is like saying that because the rate of HIV infection in the Gay community is higher than in the heterosexual community that all Gays are promiscuous.

    I truly am not minimilizing drug and alcohol addiction. I'm just saying that the majority of people who use drugs and alcohol do not become addicted and I don't believe that people should be put in prison simply for taking drugs. And yes, people can control their use, the majority do. There are far more people who drink socially and recreationally than there are people who ruin their lives with alcohol, and the same goes for drugs. While it is unfortunate that some people do ruin their lives with these things, making it illegal for everyone does nothing but force it to the black market, and increasing crime in the process.

    I have to disagree with you when you say making a methamphetamine in a pharmaceutical lab and in a home lab will have no difference. I guess I should have said simply "amphetamine". Up until the 1970's people took amphetamines given to them by their Drs. if they wanted to lose weight or simply stay awake. A daily user of amphetamines was JFK. Methamphetamine is the result of prohibition just like wood alcohol was the result of prohibition. I'm sure you are aware that retailers and pharmacies are now requiring signatures to buy pseudophed and any cold preparation containing peseuophedrine. While this may eliminate the small mom and pop meth labs, it will do nothing to stop meth use. All it will accomplish is to make it more difficult for people to treat their cold symptoms. The meth will continue to pour into this country from the super meth labs in Mexico. This in turn will require more border patrol and cause more crime than we can imagine.

    There is no doubt that meth is a dangerous drug and can cause terrible consequences. That said, it is just the drug du jour of the first decade of the 21st centruy. In the 1920's it was Devil Drink, the worse drug ever; in the 1930's it was "reefer madness" the worse drug ever; the 1940's and 1950's we had the Nazis and Koreans to demonize so we didn't need a drug. The 60's brought us LSD, the worse drug ever. The 70's gave us Herione, the worse drug ever, the 80's gave us crack, the worse drug ever, the 90's gave us ecstacy, the worse drug ever. And now at the dawn of the 21st century, we have meth, the worse drug ever.

    I am sure that in your work you see many sad things related to drug and alcohol addiction. But again, the people you are seeing are addicted to these substances. I would venture a guess that the majority of adults in this country have sometime in their life drank alcohol. Many people drink daily even with dinner. Alcohol is legal and you have a certain percentage of people who abuse it. It is difficult to tell how many people have used drugs but the numbers are high, one study said about 50%. Drugs are illegal and you have a certain percentage of people who abuse them. Legalizing drugs would not make everyone an overnight drug addict, just as lifting alcohol prohibition did not make eveyone an overnight alcoholic. The only difference between drugs and alcohol is that drugs are illegal. And while some sort of bad behavior is required to go to jail with alcohol use, mere possession, buying and selling of drugs will get you there.

    Addiction needs to fall under medicine as a public health issue, not under law enforcement as a legal issue. That said, those who choose to use drugs and cause harm to no body should just be left alone. I personally would like law enforcement arresting murders, rapists, child molesters and preventing another terrorist attack instead of arresting people who use drugs. And who knows, maybe if the stigma and legal ramifications from drug use were removed, more people might seek help IF they needed it.
  3. by   IMustBeCrazy
    Many people that come through the doors of a rehab center are not there voluntarily. Some certainly are, but that would require a level of judgement that most users simply do not have while using. Very few people have the ability to make coherent and sound decisions while using. Those actively using are deemed unable to sign informed consent as an example. Remember, these drugs disinhibit and give users the high that they crave until their next hit. No drug user is going to use a drug that gives them a shot of reality. The disinhibition (accompanied by poor judgement and poor cognition) is the high.

    Many people enter rehab via either a court order as part of criminal charges *or* a family petitioning a court for mandated treatment of their loved one. I can guarantee that none of these people entering treatment in either of these two situations believe that they have a problem.

    ~IMBC
  4. by   jerseyboy
    Quote from IMustBeCrazy
    Many people that come through the doors of a rehab center are not there voluntarily. Some certainly are, but that would require a level of judgement that most users simply do not have while using. Very few people have the ability to make coherent and sound decisions while using. Those actively using are deemed unable to sign informed consent as an example. Remember, these drugs disinhibit and give users the high that they crave until their next hit. No drug user is going to use a drug that gives them a shot of reality. The disinhibition (accompanied by poor judgement and poor cognition) is the high.

    Many people enter rehab via either a court order as part of criminal charges *or* a family petitioning a court for mandated treatment of their loved one. I can guarantee that none of these people entering treatment in either of these two situations believe that they have a problem.

    ~IMBC
    Hi IMBC,
    When you say that very few people have the ability to make coherent and sound decisions while using, are you talking about people who have serious addiction? That seems reasonable if this is the population you are talking about. I believe that you and I are talking about two different populations of drug and alcohol users. Those who have addiction, and those who do not. However, people who use drugs and aren't addicted can make coherent and sound decisions like anyone else. As a matter of fact, even people with addiction can make coherent and sound decisions, it is just some who can't. Although I am certain that sometimes people who aren't addicted may exhibit uninhibited behavior while under the influence, this doesn't mean they need drug treatment. It means they over indulged and acted stupid. Millions of people do this every day. But to not have the ability to sign their own consent forms because of an incident of overindulgence? I question that.

    Consider this, every night millions of Americans go home from work and have a drink of alcohol. Some drink a little, some drink alot. The majority of them have no problems associated with their alcohol use. They go to work the next day, they take care of their families and responsibilities and are productive members of society. The same is true for drug use, but instead of drinking a drink, they take some form of a drug. The only difference is alcohol is legal and drugs are not. How does it benefit society to arrest the person taking the drug but not the person drinking alcohol? As far as that goes, why would we want to arrest either of them? The person drinking the alcohol may stop at the store on the way home and buy it without any threat to their safety or threat of arrest. However, the person who chooses to use the drug instead, must go to a back alley somewhere putting their safety and freedom at risk. Of course some people would say, "well that's their own fault, don't go and buy them." The problem with that is, the people who say this are imposing their views and morality on others. Of course there are some things so morally reprehensible that they are considered reprehensible in practically every culture in the world. However, when it comes to other things, especially those things that harm nobody else, each person must look to themselves to determine if it offends their own moral sensibilities. The Crusades were a perfect example of attempting to impose views on others.

    You say that some people enter rehab through a court because of criminal charges or that the family can petition the court to mandate treatment. (This is very bothersome, insidious, if you will.) You also said that none of these people think that they have a problem.
    Have you ever considered that maybe they don't? Or are they just assumed to have a problem because they are there? Just because someone's family isn't happy with their loved ones life, perhaps the person being coerced is perfectly happy with their own life.

    For instance, if someone commits a crime and during the arrest drugs are found on them, it is a drug crime. It doesn't matter that the drugs were secondary to the criminal act, these people are mandated to treatment as part of their sentence. While I believe driving under the influence is a crime where drugs are alcohol are the primary culprits, it doesn't mean that these people are addicts and require treatment. These people should be fined, licence suspended and required to do community service. They should also be required to have a breathalyzer on their car for a period of time and only be permitted to drive that car to ensure that they are capable of not drinking and driving. However, they should only be required not to drink and drive. I believe that those with DUI are mandated to be totally abstinent. I believe this is extreme. Why would we as a society care if this person drinks as long as he doens't drive?

    As far as being mandated to treatment for committing a crime, I would venture a guess that alot of the crimes are for buying, selling and possessing. Perhaps testing positive on a random drug test, which of course doesn't show impairment, just that they have taken a drug within a few days. They just go to save their jobs. I'm not saying everyone coerced into treatment doesn't have a problem, I am sure some do, but I am just as sure that some do not. You hear all of the time of people who want into drug treatment but there are no beds available. It is almost criminal that the people who want it, can't get it because the beds are full of people who more than likely don't have an addiction. But then again, the true down and out addict, living on the street, doesn't have a payor source.

    Please indulge me, I recall reading a story where a bar owner was being robbed at gunpoint. He feared for his life, so he took his shotgun out from under the bar and killed the intruder. He then called the police who came to investigate. During their investigation they found marijuana in the bar. Because of this, he has charged with murder and was facing 25-life because there were drugs present. So in the opinion of the prosecuter, because this man used marijuana, he was not permitted to defend his own life from an intruder. I don't know what ever became of the case. I'll try to find out.
    This is the insanity of the war on drugs. Other collateral damage of this war are pain patients. There are a couple of good web sites that discuss this as well.
    www.painreliefnetwork.com
    www.doctordeluca.com
    As I have said, I am sure you see some awful things that have been caused by drug and alcohol abuse. However, this will happen whether drugs are legal or not. The only difference is that people who use drugs and cause no harm to others will not be put in prison, lose their jobs, carry a felony record for life. Were you aware that young people who are charged with "drug crimes" which include buying, selling and using drugs, are ineligible to receive student loans? This is outrageous. Because a 19 year old gets caught with drugs on him, he then won't be able to go go college? He also won't be able to ever get a decent job because of a felony record. Is this right? If this young person is addicted, this is the worse thing that we could do to get him to quit. Stable employment and higher education are two of the biggest indicators that one will quit if they are indeed addicted.

    Will be waiting to hear from you.
    JB
  5. by   IMustBeCrazy
    I ask this with all due respect.

    Are you a nurse? You seem to be new to this forum and to be honest I can't fathom a nurse posting on a nurses discussion forum advocating drug use.

    ~IMBC
  6. by   FurmanGirl
    Wow, my intention by posting this story wasn't for one preson to dominate the discussion by TRYING to persuade others to legalize drugs. I wish I had the time on my hands that it seems you do to reply to all your nonsense, but I don't. You seem to be in the minority here. But, I will agree to COMPLETELY disagree.
  7. by   IMustBeCrazy
    FurmanGirl,

    Thanks for posting this. I have gained some valuable insight into the proper disposal of Duragesic patches. (Thanks Elkpark!) Time to focus on the the original post, and enough of the offtopic discussion.

    ~IMBC
  8. by   jerseyboy
    Quote from IMustBeCrazy
    I ask this with all due respect.

    Are you a nurse? You seem to be new to this forum and to be honest I can't fathom a nurse posting on a nurses discussion forum advocating drug use.

    ~IMBC
    Hi IMBC,
    Thanks for your response. I'm not advocating drug use, I am just acknowledging the fact that it occurs, therefore, we as a society need to reduce the harm associated with it. The first thing to do is to remove it from the black market. The second thing is addiction needs to be a public health issue, not a law enforcement issue. And those who wish to use drugs instead of alcohol should not be put in prison.

    For those who are interested, there is a web site, a think tank, if you will, out of George Mason University. From their website: "Stats moniters the media to expose the abuse of science and statistics before people are misled and public policy is distorted. Of particular interest, and very good reading, are the articles by Maia Szalavitz
    www.stats.org
    Thank You for your interaction. I will leave it as you do, we will agree to disagree.
  9. by   jerseyboy
    Quote from FurmanGirl
    Wow, my intention by posting this story wasn't for one preson to dominate the discussion by TRYING to persuade others to legalize drugs. I wish I had the time on my hands that it seems you do to reply to all your nonsense, but I don't. You seem to be in the minority here. But, I will agree to COMPLETELY disagree.
    Hi Furmangirl,
    How does one dominate an internet discussion board? Anyone is free to post their views at any time. So just what was your intention for posting that story? Was it to educate others on proper placement and timing of patches to prevent them from being stolen? If that was the reason, then it was a lofty goal. This is one thing we can agree on, it is completely wrong to steal pain medicine from patients, there is no excuse for it. Or was it to scoff at and demonize a woman, probably with an addiction, because the casual user wouldn't typically resort to that. (Logic would dictate that this never would have happened if she could have went to the pharmacy and bought one. She wouldn't be facing legal charges, the taxpayers wouldn't be paying to prosecute and incarcerate her, the pharmacy would have made some money, and the patient wouldn't have suffered pain. But alas, logic has left the building, it seems.) Some of the other posts provided information as well, however, many of the posts were less than educational. I mean, they ranged from calling this woman names, to accusing someone of stealing pain patches simply because she was wearing one, and of demonizing people who took drugs that were marked for disposal. Although taking drugs meant for disposal may not be the smartest thing to do, you would care if someone did that, because..........? Do you care because you are concerned for their welfare and safety, or do you care because YOU disapprove of drug use, therefore, it is bad and everyone must abstain from doing it? I wonder, have you ever drank alcohol, or have you ever been drunk? Of course, I'm just thinking out loud and in no way expect you to answer that because it is none of my business.

    You say I am in the minority. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. Do you believe that what I post is "nonsense" because I am in the minority, or because you, yourself, disagree with me? I believe, and I certainly hope, it is becaue you personally disagree with my views and not because you believe that tyranny of the majority is acceptable. Gee, I don't know, which is scarier? Someone who lobbies to reduce the crime and harm caused by drugs by taxing, regulating, educating and providing medical intervention when necessary, so that grown men and women living in a free society can ingest into their own bodies what they choose without fear of incarceration? Or......someone who lobbies to quiet the voice of the minority? I don't know, I guess I'll let you decide.

    You say you don't have the time that I appear to have to be able to properly respond. However, it really doesn't take that much time given the fact that I can type 130 wpm,I can speed read, and I know what I think and just say it. Perhaps it takes you longer to gather your thoughts, perhaps you're a slow reader or perhaps you hunt and peck at the keyboard. Either way, you say that you COMPLETELY disagree, and that's OK. I don't ever expect 100% consensus on this issue. You are right about one thing though, majority rules. However, they must rule without trampling on the rights of the minority. When the majority of Americans come to see the waste, corruption and the ineffectiveness, which is the "war on drugs", I feel that you may be in the minority then. However, you will still be free to voice your opinion and lobby for change as I have. I do not see your views as "nonsense", a little misguided perhaps, but certainly not "nonsense"

    Thank you for your responses, I will leave you as well, agreeing to disagree.
  10. by   DRIVERRN
    Do you realize whatever you flush in a commode ultimately goes back into our water system? Phoenix supposedly has a high level of darvoset in the water. Lots of arthritic residents? Oklahoma City has high level of accidental death by Fentenyl, surpassing Oxycontin in abuse.
  11. by   weezledawg
    Quote from stevielynn
    IMBC - I appreciate your posts. I too have first-hand experience with illegal drug users and it is not a victimless crime.

    I do not feel sorry for people who knowingly get hooked up with a person who is selling ILLEGAL drugs and then get caught up in the "snare". Manufacturing meth is illegal. Excuse my high school slang, but "DUH".

    Meth is a horrible drug and should never be made by our pharmaceutical companies. The very first time a person uses meth, it changes your brain chemistry for the worse forever.

    Because some scumbags decide to make money off the black market selling illegal drugs does not mean illegal drugs should be made legal . . .just so those scumbags can magically not be committing a crime. Changing the definition of what the crime is and making it NOT a crime does not negate any of the negative consequences of addiction.

    I saw it yesterday when I helped in the delivery of a baby born to a meth user who was also high on pot. Baby had IUGR most likely directly related to meth use. "Mom" was tearful and shocked that someone might take her baby away but she should have thought of that every time she smoked or snorted or injected drugs into her system which then flowed directly into her baby's system.

    Our county has one of the highest percentages of babies born with meth in their system. That is just the beginning of a huge problem that society gets to pay for . . . .

    Addiction is real, the consequences are real, people are hurt.

    steph

    WOW, I think you and I reside in the same county. Having dealt with this issue firsthand, I can honestly say that treatment is the answer for addiction. Our justice system wants to put every drug abuser behind bars, but with the Prop 36 initiative, we are starting to see some users get clean time. Addiction is a disease, and one that does not originate due to a specific drug. Our government has spent years trying to regulate drugs, when treatment of this highly prevalent disease is what needs to happen. Now, more than ever, is treatment becoming a mainstream thing. More and more celebrities are coming out with addiction problems, and are subsequently going to rehab.

    As nurses, we deal with many people that need medical treatment due to their drug use. Just like any other disease, we can offer them perhaps the first exposure they have ever encountered to the idea that they don't have to live and die this way. Help is available. We show diabetics what they have to do to maintain a healthy lifestyle, we can show people with addiction and alcoholism the same respect.

    I am not surprised that there is an aide somewhere that sucked the medication out of a patch. THIS IS WHAT ADDICTS DO. They use. They use at the expense of their families, they use before they pay the rent, they use pregnant, and they use despite all the negative consequences. They don't know any other way to live, so they have to learn new life skills before any changes really happen.

    Recovery is not an easy road. It takes a lot of work, and many resources to get there. People who suffer from addiction need treatment, not judgement. Once we start facing this problem from a proactive stance, then maybe we can get a few less meth babies and broken families.

    I could go on and on forever because this issue is so very close to my heart. I keep waiting for the day some main character in a sitcom or network drama is seen going to meetings regularly and winning the battle against addiction. For all the press active users get, there sure isn't the support out there for people who get and keep clean time.
  12. by   weezledawg
    Quote from IMustBeCrazy
    Many people that come through the doors of a rehab center are not there voluntarily. Some certainly are, but that would require a level of judgement that most users simply do not have while using. Very few people have the ability to make coherent and sound decisions while using. Those actively using are deemed unable to sign informed consent as an example. Remember, these drugs disinhibit and give users the high that they crave until their next hit. No drug user is going to use a drug that gives them a shot of reality. The disinhibition (accompanied by poor judgement and poor cognition) is the high.

    Many people enter rehab via either a court order as part of criminal charges *or* a family petitioning a court for mandated treatment of their loved one. I can guarantee that none of these people entering treatment in either of these two situations believe that they have a problem.

    ~IMBC
    It is very important to note that it really doesn't matter how someone gets into treatment. What matters is that they get there. The average times someone really tries to quit cigarettes is 7 times before success usually occurs. The same principle is true with addiction. People can go to rehab a few times before they "get it." Believe me, the exposure they receive to being clean is a sort of conditioning. Just being in a supportive environment, where they talk about their feelings in an appropriate way, being able to model normal social behavior, and having a forum to learn how to live again are all important. You never know what gets through to an addict, so even an "unsuccessful" attempt at recovery can have huge effects on future attempts. I have seen people get clean who were deemed "hopeless," people who have HIV, with nothing to look forward to but a painful death who get and stay clean. Much like nursing, treatment is individualized, and what works for one person won't for another. But skilled drug and alcohol counselors can change lives. They know many people enter treatment sure they "don't have a problem." Breaking through the denial is all part of the process. As nurses, we are facilitators of wellness, and in our society there is a huge knowledge deficit in this area, not only for the general public, but medical professionals as well.
  13. by   EricG
    I am not advocating, agreeing with, nor partaking in the merits ~or~ lack thereof of legalizing illicit or prescription drug use/abuse but in order to educate some who have posted re: meth and the absurdity of it being produced by pharmacuetical co's, please search the drug Desoxyn.
    Last edit by EricG on Nov 23, '05

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