50,000 visas for foreign nurses! Is this really a good thing for us Americans? - page 3

I just read about these new immigration laws passed in the senate and I'm wondering what the changes will mean for us Americans as far as finding and keeping a job goes. I don't have anything... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from suzanne4
    Look closely at this bill............Notice that it is preceded by H-_....these are temorary work permits only, not permanent residency status. Bad thing....
    It has the same requirements that the nurse needs to land a green card, Visa Screen Certificate and the full set of English exams that goes along with it.
    The nurse literally belongs to the agency or hospital...........if they do not like one another they only have a certain number of days to find someone to sponsor them, or they have to leave the country.................these contracts are for only two or three years, and many times cannot be renewed.

    Since the nurse would not have permanent residency status, yes, they can be paid a smaller salary................and most fo the time they are......The company only needs to pay the same if they have permanent status in the US, not here on a tempoary basis.

    I am very much against these visas, only suggest/recommend that the nurse comes to the US with a green card, doesn't try short-cuts, or they only get the royal screw in the end...............
    I appreciate your vast knowledge of these laws. Keep on educating people; the grass may NOT be greener for them, in cases like this.
  2. by   fergus51
    Quote from begalli
    One thing, as others have pointed out, is that many of these foreign nurses are leaving horrendous working conditions and anything is an improvement. The problem I see is that the nurses will be so grateful for this perceived improvement and think everything's just dandy when in fact, everything's NOT dandy.

    I see this now with some US nurses who come to work with us from other states. Just the other day I took report from a nurse who handled, to the best of her ability, a ridiculous assignment. During report, she said to me, "remember, I worked in Florida where we had 3-4 intubated patients at the same time!" Within the first 15 minutes into the shift, I let it be known that the two patients assigned to me needed to be split up into two separate assignments with two RNs and that's exactly what happened. The Resource nurse got the critical care crisis nurse to the unit to take one of the patients until another staff RN could get there. Neither of these patients received proper care for 4 hours prior to my arrival because SHE DID NOT SPEAK UP. She just "dealt" with it because "it was even worse in Florida and at least this is better." That's so wrong.

    Women of many cultures are not encouraged to "rock the boat." I respect that, but I'm afraid they will just take the dangerous staffing. I'm not saying that my unit took advantage of the RN in my story, but our Nurse Managers rely upon us telling them what the patient's needs are so they can staff appropriately. She did not speak up and they did not know what was happening.

    In states that don't have staffing laws (all others except CA), I feel that a lot of foreign nurses will just take it and as long as one nurse goes along with this, it diminishes the stance of other nurses fighting for patient and nurse safety. We have more than enough of this at home already, we don't need any more of it.
    The fact that this was an American nurse just goes to show the issue isn't citizenship. I know the popular view of foreign trained nurses is that they are meek or take on a handmaiden role, but that hasn't been my experience in working with them. There are just as many strong nurses among foreigners as there are among American born ones.

    I'm all for increasing training opportunities for Americans and working on increasing unity among nursing. I simply see that and immigration as different issues.
  3. by   begalli
    Quote from fergus51
    The fact that this was an American nurse just goes to show the issue isn't citizenship.
    I agree with you in many many ways. But I will add that this the RN I was talking about in my story did not earn her RN in the US and she does come from one of the "don't rock the boat" cultures. She has however worked for many years in the States.

    You know, something else, that RN didn't leave that day until almost 35 minutes after she gave me report. She had to catch up on charting and actually didn't even chart an initial assessment on one of the patients, the one who arrived several hours into her shift and the one who I found with unequal pupils following a surgical cervical stablization. Thank goddness the patient was mentating well before we rushed her off to the CT scanner.

    Do you think she made sure she got paid for that extra time she spent "catching up?" Nope. It was so normal for her to work over for free. She's a GREAT strong nurse and I absolutely LOVE her, but this is a dangerous practice and NOT the way our unit operates. It's also NOT what is meant by the law that mandates a maximum ratio of 1:2 in the ICU. She did not speak up because she was used to getting dumped on and thought it was the norm.

    It's scary.
  4. by   leslie :-D
    these wages we perceive to be low, are more than likely comparable to hitting the jackpot to nurses from other countries....so what is considered a good salary for them is probably enough incentive for them to put up with the overload of work.

    leslie
  5. by   madwife2002
    Quote from begalli
    I agree with you in many many ways. But I will add that this the RN I was talking about in my story did not earn her RN in the US and she does come from one of the "don't rock the boat" cultures. She has however worked for many years in the States.

    You know, something else, that RN didn't leave that day until almost 35 minutes after she gave me report. She had to catch up on charting and actually didn't even chart an initial assessment on one of the patients, the one who arrived several hours into her shift and the one who I found with unequal pupils following a surgical cervical stablization. Thank goddness the patient was mentating well before we rushed her off to the CT scanner.

    Do you think she made sure she got paid for that extra time she spent "catching up?" Nope. It was so normal for her to work over for free. She's a GREAT strong nurse and I absolutely LOVE her, but this is a dangerous practice and NOT the way our unit operates. It's also NOT what is meant by the law that mandates a maximum ratio of 1:2 in the ICU. She did not speak up because she was used to getting dumped on and thought it was the norm.

    It's scary.
    I have to say you get poor nurses from all countries and I imagine that is the same for the US trained nurses. .
    Not all nurses are good time managers nor are able to priortise their care, and it doesnt seem to be something that can be effectively taught.
  6. by   madwife2002
    Quote from Tweety
    Yeah, heaven forbid we use our power to change things. Let's just hire foreign workers who are greatful for the low pay and poor working conditions.
    Do you know I have to laugh at the irony of expectations of US nurses regarding foreign nurses, you all seem to expect the foreign RNs to be completly awful bad nurses, with no skills, no education and are unsafe practioners.
    Have you not given condsideration to the fact that maybe majority of the nurses who are emigrating to the US may actually have something to offer. I am not coming to the US to escape from poverty. I am a highly skilled professional with many years experience under my belt, and am extreemly well educated, I am not coming to your country to take I am coming to give, and contribute to society. In return I expect to be paid fairly, to live a good life and to be close to my US family.
    We all have reasons for wanting to emigrate.

    Here in the Uk we too have problems recruiting Nurses, mainly because they younger generation want to have an easier paid job, there doesnt seem to be the same vocation nurses had years ago.
    The irony for the UK is that when we recruit nurses from other countries is that they only stay for 18-24 months because they all want to come to America. so we get some great nurses train them into our way and then they move on. I imagine that is not the case for the US as people tend to stay.

    I am excieted about coming to US to live but as I have stated on other threads I am concerned re the reception I am going to recieve as a foriegn trained nurse. But thanks to allnurses.com I am prepared for the worst
  7. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from madwife2002
    Do you know I have to laugh at the irony of expectations of US nurses regarding foreign nurses, you all seem to expect the foreign RNs to be completly awful bad nurses, with no skills, no education and are unsafe practioners.
    Have you not given condsideration to the fact that maybe majority of the nurses who are emigrating to the US may actually have something to offer. I am not coming to the US to escape from poverty. I am a highly skilled professional with many years experience under my belt, and am extreemly well educated, I am not coming to your country to take I am coming to give, and contribute to society. In return I expect to be paid fairly, to live a good life and to be close to my US family.
    We all have reasons for wanting to emigrate.

    Here in the Uk we too have problems recruiting Nurses, mainly because they younger generation want to have an easier paid job, there doesnt seem to be the same vocation nurses had years ago.
    The irony for the UK is that when we recruit nurses from other countries is that they only stay for 18-24 months because they all want to come to America. so we get some great nurses train them into our way and then they move on. I imagine that is not the case for the US as people tend to stay.

    I am excieted about coming to US to live but as I have stated on other threads I am concerned re the reception I am going to recieve as a foriegn trained nurse. But thanks to allnurses.com I am prepared for the worst
    Woah, just wait a minute. I know I said this was an "old" subject, but I have to respond to this post. I feel it's unfair.

    No one said international nurses are unskilled or uneducated at all. Nobody is blaming international nurses for coming here, either. We are only expressing our worry over the "band-aid" aspect of such recruitment as a solution to our shortages. It's no true solution.

    Also, I think the other countries of the world need their nurses as much as we do. I find it rather disgusting we (our government in the USA, actually) think we can toss a little money at people, luring them here to solve our problems , without giving a thought to the crises in their own nations. It's very selfish and unfair; we are leaving them in even greater dire straits, while we try to pad ourselves. The nursing shortage is not a USA-only problem, as you pointed out. Why do we feel entitled to take the world's nurses from others, just because we can? :angryfire

    We are ignoring the equally-large issue of how nurses are treated in our country and why so many are walking away or simply not choosing nursing as a career in college. We have PLENTY of young people coming up----people, for whom if nursing looked more attractive, might join our ranks! (especially after the dot-com bubble burst).

    We also have plenty of fairly young, new nurses who leave the nursing profession in less than 5 years after starting out. Anyone care why this would be, after spending years and much money on educating specifically to become nurses, they would just walk away? I have a clue; it's about retention, not recruitment! Self-respecting people who have ANY options at all, don't cotton to being abused and used up year after year. They may also walk away when they see their colleages injured on the job have their disability claims fought to the last penny, and then tossed like used rubbish without a thought----ending up unemployed and un-cared-for after caring for so many others in their lives. But business is business, and they have to be replaced somehow, right????

    Hey, here is the answer: lets' just rob the world of their nurses, instead of spending that money on incentives to retain our *own* good nurses---- I find it amazing so few in administration realize that recruitment is not very meaningful if we can't retain people, whether it be from overseas of of new nurses here. The issue is retention, not just recruitment. Hello, anyone get this?

    I also find it disgusting that international nurses can ever be paid one penny less than those who are citizens here, for any reason, whether it be cultural differences/expectations or by tricky laws that are passed in order to get away with it. It's unfair to them, and to us, as well. It sets an unethical and potentially dangerous precedent for the future of nursing in our country.

    These are all valid concerns, having nothing to do with any sort of smear campaign against foriegn-born nurses, downing the skills, training and education of such people in other lands.

    Again, no one here assumes international nurses to be of less quality or less well-educated than USA-born ones. Many hold BSN or higher degrees, I know---- and are very highly skilled. I have worked with them; I have spoken to them on these boards. I know they are amazing professionals looking for opportunities and "greener pastures" elsewhere. I can't blame any of them.

    I just hate to see anyone abused or taken advantage of, to save a buck, whether they be foreign-born or our own citizens here. And that is exactly what is happening now! Don't you see? It's wrong and it's not a solution that is suitable for anyone, nurses or patients. I wish more would understand where we are coming from in expressing our concerns, rather than knee-jerk react with "USA hates foreigners" responses.

    It's about larger concerns that affect the very future of nursing in America, our lives as nurses, and the welfare of patients under our care.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 6, '05
  8. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from madwife2002
    Do you know I have to laugh at the irony of expectations of US nurses regarding foreign nurses, you all seem to expect the foreign RNs to be completly awful bad nurses, with no skills, no education and are unsafe practioners.
    i've read all of the posts and haven't read one that even closely implies your perception of what american nurses think of foreign nurses' qualifications.

    as deb so perfectly put it, it's not solving the real problems of nsg in america. it's comparable to dressing an infected wound w/o treating it. the wound will merely fester until its' localized infection becomes systemic.

    so if there are foreign nurses that have been accustomed to horrific working conditions in their country, then they're going to tolerate it here because of the higher wages. these unacceptable staffing ratios are probably the norm for them, perhaps even much worse.
    if we get those foreign nurses whose culture dictates to not assert themselves, then the current problems of u.s. nurses is only going to further deteriorate.

    i've always professed that our govt. should concentrate on the retention of experienced nurses and to date, for the life of me, their recruitment of foreign nurses does nothing to solve the problems of what we are currently experiencing.

    leslie
  9. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    Quote from madwife2002
    Do you know I have to laugh at the irony of expectations of US nurses regarding foreign nurses, you all seem to expect the foreign RNs to be completly awful bad nurses, with no skills, no education and are unsafe practioners.
    Have you not given condsideration to the fact that maybe majority of the nurses who are emigrating to the US may actually have something to offer. I am not coming to the US to escape from poverty. I am a highly skilled professional with many years experience under my belt, and am extreemly well educated, I am not coming to your country to take I am coming to give, and contribute to society. In return I expect to be paid fairly, to live a good life and to be close to my US family.
    We all have reasons for wanting to emigrate.

    Here in the Uk we too have problems recruiting Nurses, mainly because they younger generation want to have an easier paid job, there doesnt seem to be the same vocation nurses had years ago.
    The irony for the UK is that when we recruit nurses from other countries is that they only stay for 18-24 months because they all want to come to America. so we get some great nurses train them into our way and then they move on. I imagine that is not the case for the US as people tend to stay.

    I am excieted about coming to US to live but as I have stated on other threads I am concerned re the reception I am going to recieve as a foriegn trained nurse. But thanks to allnurses.com I am prepared for the worst
    I saw ONE post where someone questioned ONE PERSON'S skills, in ONE situation.

    The problem i have with foreign nurse recruitment is that is it NOT the solution to low pay, dangerous ratios, etc. No one (except here) is asking WHY the current nurses are leaving, they're more concerned with getting a warm body to replace them, and not interested in correcting the problem that made a nurse leave in the FIRST place.
  10. by   fergus51
    Maybe it's because I still think of myself as a quasi-foreigner, but I get the same vibe as Kay does from many of these posts. People don't think they are being insulting, but they put out generalizations like "foreign nurses are just so happy for the money, they'll tolerate anything" or "foreign nurses are just more subservient because of their culture so they don't advocate for patients" or "foreign nurses shouldn't be stolen from their own countries (as though they have no say in it)" or "foreign nurses allow employers to avoid dealing with the problems we have (as though it has nothing to do with US and how WE have dealt with it!!)" .... If someone was saying that about Canadian or American nurses, I would feel a little insulted too. I don't think for a second that anyone posting intends to be insulting, but I certainly understand how the posts can be taken that way.
  11. by   JGo
    dear future and current nurses:
    have you seen a patient die because no nurse was available at "that time in a hospital"
    i am sure that whoever is againt of any messure to alleviate the shortage, has not even imagine what I have seen!
    Dont be affraid of competition, just make yourself the best nurse and you'll never have to worry for a nursing position and a high salary
    On the other hand: this, your country, which now is mine too, needs nurses for our sick people, so we should do what it takes to have one nurse more to care for them
    Think about, and think twice, but with your heart
    Viva USA!
  12. by   JGo
    You have no idea of what you are talking about, nurses in many countries are much better than here and tolerate much less than what you do



    Quote from earle58
    i've read all of the posts and haven't read one that even closely implies your perception of what american nurses think of foreign nurses' qualifications.

    as deb so perfectly put it, it's not solving the real problems of nsg in america. it's comparable to dressing an infected wound w/o treating it. the wound will merely fester until its' localized infection becomes systemic.

    so if there are foreign nurses that have been accustomed to horrific working conditions in their country, then they're going to tolerate it here because of the higher wages. these unacceptable staffing ratios are probably the norm for them, perhaps even much worse.
    if we get those foreign nurses whose culture dictates to not assert themselves, then the current problems of u.s. nurses is only going to further deteriorate.

    i've always professed that our govt. should concentrate on the retention of experienced nurses and to date, for the life of me, their recruitment of foreign nurses does nothing to solve the problems of what we are currently experiencing.

    leslie
  13. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from JGo
    You have no idea of what you are talking about, nurses in many countries are much better than here and tolerate much less than what you do
    i guess it would depend on what country/culture you're referring to in terms of tolerance/intolerance.

    you may want to reread my post- NEVER did i once refer to u.s. nurses being superior and/or foreign nurses being inferior.

    what i do believe is recruiting foreign nurses is not going to solve the nsg issues we face.
    and for you to say that "nurses in many countries are much better than here.." is uncalled for, don't you think? there are the great and not so great in every profession, regardless of the country you come from.

    leslie

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