2 hospitals to drop licensed practical nurses - page 20

the changes at mercy and unity hospitals are meant to improve care, but unions say the remaining nurses will be stretched too thin. all 90 licensed practical nursing jobs at mercy and unity... Read More

  1. by   Q.
    Quote from austin heart
    First thing that I would like to know is how long have you been out of school and how long have you been a nurse?
    How does my scope of practice as an ADN differ than a a nurse with a BSN. Last I checked we all worked under the SAME rules set forth by the state's BNE and we all passed the SAME RN-NCLX. Tell me how our scope of practice differs.
    I don't know where you work but where I am the ADNs and BSNs work along side eachother doing the same job. And I can run circles around some of them when it comes to skills and knowledge.
    And I agree with the last poster, LVNs DO have a different scope of practice.
    Austin heart, first, I'm curious as to what my years as a nurse has anything to do with my opinion? Or are you saying that somehow, if I were a new grad, my opinion would be invalid?

    As to the question: in an effort to be concise in my previous post it appeared that I created some confusion. So, I will elaborate.

    Yes, LPNs have a different title and different scope of practice. What I meant is that I personally believe there should only be ONE nurse with ONE education - in other words, standardization. There should not be two different licensing exams, there should not be 4 different types of nursing school, there should be one, with one standard. So in that regard, no, I don't disrespect LPNs on a personal level. I just think that, in reference to my best buddy SueLPN (as in previous post) that she should be an RN and we shouldn't have taken separate licensing exams. THAT is what I meant by having an LPN have a different scope of practice: different than what they are CURRENTLY. They should have an RN scope of practice.

    Now you may ask why should she be an RN? What's wrong with an LPN? Nothing, but if I were to make everyone in nursing the same, I would take the broadest scope of practice (excluding APNs).

    As far as ADNs, yes their scope is the same. I included them in my post earlier mainly to be concise and cover all areas mainly because they keep getting brought up into this discussion: I didn't mean to infer that their scope is or would be different than mine.

    Bottom line: I believe we should have standard nursing education, with one point of entry and that should be an RN, simply because they have the broadest scope of practice. Should it be an ADN or BSN? Honestly I prefer the BSN so it would put us on par with everyone else in the professional world, namely our health care colleauges, but even if the standard point of entry was ADN, I could give a rip, so long as it's standardized.

    And that's why I think the LPN role should go away. Does that mean that I think LPNs are dumb, stupid, worthless? No, quite the contrary: I think they should be RNs.
    Last edit by Q. on Dec 15, '05
  2. by   austin heart
    Quote from Q.
    Austin heart, first, I'm curious as to what my years as a nurse has anything to do with my opinion? Or are you saying that somehow, if I were a new grad, my opinion would be invalid?
    No it doesn't make your opinion invalid but it would help to explain why it is so narrow minded. I really do not mean that to be a slam, your posts just sound as if you haven't been in the nursing "real world" very long.
  3. by   Q.
    Quote from austin heart
    No it doesn't make your opinion invalid but it would help to explain why it is so narrow minded. I really do not mean that to be a slam, your posts just sound as if you haven't been in the nursing "real world" very long.

    Well that goes to prove that the various assumptions that have been made on this thread are indeed false.

    Quite contrary, I find my views to be broad in that rather than focusing on individual's roles (LPNs) I am focusing more on the global aspect of nursing as a whole. Rather than focusing on the several different scopes of nursing, I'd like one across the board.

    FWIW, I have been a nurse and working in the profession for 8 years. I've worked both as staff and in more administrative roles. And I've worked in a variety of settings, from hospitals to clinics to insurance companies.
  4. by   Q.
    Actually, I am moreso wondering why wanting standardized nursing education makes me narrow-minded?
  5. by   kadokin
    Quote from TheCommuter
    One of my former theory instructors, an MSN with 41 years of experience, uses that term to describe the upper portion of the U.S. between Washington state and Maine. According to her, people who visit or reside in that region are at increased risk for contracting strep infection.
    Fascinating
  6. by   topamicha
    I am currently in a BSN program. The big difference between this and the ADN program at the community college primarily lies in liberal arts prereqs. Sociology, humanities, more English, etc. The only core science difference is chemistry. There is also one semester of statistics in the BSN program, and yes, a few administrative/research classes.

    I'm still in nursing school, so I don't have experience as a nurse, but I find it offensive that a certain poster (Chicago BSN) would consider herself so superior to other nurses because of the above classes. Yes, they are valuable, but they do not necessarily make her a better nurse than someone with an ADN.

    There is a serious shortage, there are wait lists around the country, and to suggest that the ADN route is a bad way to go is silly. That is a great deal of extra time that patients are going to be waiting for much needed nurses.

    I agree with what one poster said about nursing being an art as well as a science. And the interesting thing is this - the various levels of entry into nursing allow people with great life experience to enter the field - people who otherwise might never consider it. Diversity and life experience are priceless. There are some people with families & jobs who could never consider going to school for four years full time. Nonetheless, what they have to offer the field is just as valuable as a 22 year old who just finished a BSN program but has never been exposed to the real world. Different levels of entry, as long as the nurses are competent (which the ADN programs obviously require) enhance and promote the ART of nursing without sacrificing the science.

    And...the poster may think that ADN's take the "easy route," but seriously, working & raising a family & getting an ADN is probably just as difficult as getting a BSN with none of those obligations. It's all relative. College is not the only place a person acquires wisdom or the traits that are necessary to taking the ART of nursing to new heights. Non traditional students, however, play a huge role in that arena.

    Okay, rant over. Disclaimer: I am not implying that all BSN's are young girls fresh out of high school, nor am I implying that all ADN's are sage. Not meaning to generalize.
  7. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Getting my ADN was one of the hardest things I ever did. It was no cakewalk, the standards were VERY high, and DEFINATELY not the "easy way out" for me.
  8. by   kadokin
    Quote from topamicha
    I am currently in a BSN program. The big difference between this and the ADN program at the community college primarily lies in liberal arts prereqs. Sociology, humanities, more English, etc. The only core science difference is chemistry. There is also one semester of statistics in the BSN program, and yes, a few administrative/research classes.

    I'm still in nursing school, so I don't have experience as a nurse, but I find it offensive that a certain poster (Chicago BSN) would consider herself so superior to other nurses because of the above classes. Yes, they are valuable, but they do not necessarily make her a better nurse than someone with an ADN.

    There is a serious shortage, there are wait lists around the country, and to suggest that the ADN route is a bad way to go is silly. That is a great deal of extra time that patients are going to be waiting for much needed nurses.

    I agree with what one poster said about nursing being an art as well as a science. And the interesting thing is this - the various levels of entry into nursing allow people with great life experience to enter the field - people who otherwise might never consider it. Diversity and life experience are priceless. There are some people with families & jobs who could never consider going to school for four years full time. Nonetheless, what they have to offer the field is just as valuable as a 22 year old who just finished a BSN program but has never been exposed to the real world. Different levels of entry, as long as the nurses are competent (which the ADN programs obviously require) enhance and promote the ART of nursing without sacrificing the science.

    And...the poster may think that ADN's take the "easy route," but seriously, working & raising a family & getting an ADN is probably just as difficult as getting a BSN with none of those obligations. It's all relative. College is not the only place a person acquires wisdom or the traits that are necessary to taking the ART of nursing to new heights. Non traditional students, however, play a huge role in that arena.

    Okay, rant over. Disclaimer: I am not implying that all BSN's are young girls fresh out of high school, nor am I implying that all ADN's are sage. Not meaning to generalize.
    Thank you. You made some very valid points. Yes, diversity is one of the things that makes nursing strong. I wish we could all appreciate this as we go about our daily tasks and realize we ALL have something to learn from EACH OTHER, no matter who holds what title. And thank you for the disclaimer, I have a bsn AND some life experience. And you are one SAGE nursing student
  9. by   topamicha
    Thank you, kadokin.

    That's supposed to be a happy face, btw, not a mad face.
    Last edit by topamicha on Dec 24, '05
  10. by   cajunladynurse
    Quote from lindarn
    Again, the hospital that I worked in here in Spokane, Washington, got rid of all of their LPNs two years ago. I worked in Critical Care most of my career, and we always had an all RN staff. I cannot believe that their are critical care units that untilize LPNs/LVNs as staff. I go back 25 years in critical care.

    As unfortunate as it is, with many hard luck stories, I cannot disagree with the decisions that hospitals are making. The concept of LPNs and LVNs has come and gone. They were instituted during WWII, when the RNs were going off to war. They were never meant to be permanent. The writing on the wall has been coming for many years, and many LPN/LVNs took the opportunity to upgrade in a bridge program to become RNs. They should feel lucky that they are even allowed to do that. When I graduated in 1975 with a diploma in nursing, LPNs had to completely start over if they wanted to become RNs. I blame the ANA, and State Boards of Nursing for bowing to political pressure, and continuing on an outdated career field. Healthcare is becoming increasingly technical and sophisticted, and a higher level of education is necessary. Physical Therapists have gone to a DOCTORATE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE, AS HAVE PHARMACISTS. OCCUPATIONAL THERAPISTS HAVE A MASTERS AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. PHYSICAL THERAPY ASSISTANTS HAVE AN ASSOCIATES DEGREE AS ENTRY INTO PRACTICE. None of these career fields dramatically influences patient outcomes, with the exception of pharmicists. Tell me that there is really a place in todays health care for LPNs and LVNs, with a one year educational program. I mean no disrespect for them and I know that they have worked hard to get there. But the time has come to upgrade, or leave. The same for RNs with a BSN. Another option could be having an on site LPN-LVN/bridge program, and on site Diploma-ADN/BSN programs. And the individuals in these programs could retain their jobs. RNs with ADNs and Diplomas would be grandfathered in and retain their licensure. And nurses should start the political ball rolling in their states to institute patient ratios, to lessen the workload of the nurses. And we need to educate the public, that they deserve to be cared for by an RN, who has a safe patient load to be able to provide the care that they deserve.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington


    Patient care technicians should replace LPN/LVNs, an assist only in basic care, and not take over any professional nursing care. RNs should be the only ones peforming medication administration, foley insertions, dressing changes utilizing strerile technique, etc. Nursing needs to take back their career.
    I am very saddened at this nurses perception of an LPN. i have been an LPN for 42 years and have loved the profession. I have worked in every area of nursing and have been awarded with praise in my duties as an LPN. It really is a shame the way you are portraying the LPN profession. I belong to a nursing agency and i have a full time job as a LPN. The agency ia always calling me to work in psych hospitals, med surg, acute floors. I respect the RN prfessional also. I have always gotten along well my fellow RN. I cannot understand why the state boards of nursing have not thought of grandfathering the experienced LPN to at least adn. This was my heartfelt response to this previous message. Good Luck to all the hardworking LPNS that set up the y-tubing for blood to be administers so the RN only has to plug it into tthe iv line. This is a shame the way the LPN is being portrayed. Signed a hard working LPN who has loved her job for 42 years.
  11. by   FroggysMom
    Quote from nancy2003
    I am very saddened at this nurses perception of an LPN. i have been an LPN for 42 years and have loved the profession. I have worked in every area of nursing and have been awarded with praise in my duties as an LPN. It really is a shame the way you are portraying the LPN profession. I belong to a nursing agency and i have a full time job as a LPN. The agency ia always calling me to work in psych hospitals, med surg, acute floors. I respect the RN prfessional also. I have always gotten along well my fellow RN. I cannot understand why the state boards of nursing have not thought of grandfathering the experienced LPN to at least adn. This was my heartfelt response to this previous message. Good Luck to all the hardworking LPNS that set up the y-tubing for blood to be administers so the RN only has to plug it into tthe iv line. This is a shame the way the LPN is being portrayed. Signed a hard working LPN who has loved her job for 42 years.

    No other words except a very heartfelt 'thank you', Nancy.

    Unfortunately, there are those out there who feel that a level of education is what defines the "professional" rather than how we approach and perform our jobs.

    I have had the honor of working with some of the most professional LPNs, ADNs and BSNs - in and outside of critical care, med/surg and pediatrics - as well as the disappointment in working with others who were not professional in either their approach to their work, to their patients or, sadly, to each other.

    This argument will never be settled in forums such as this, but only in the way we carry ourselves and approach our respective tasks in life.

    Thank you, Nancy, for your most "professional" way of looking at our profession.
  12. by   Jessy_RN
    Quote from nancy2003
    I am very saddened at this nurses perception of an LPN. i have been an LPN for 42 years and have loved the profession. I have worked in every area of nursing and have been awarded with praise in my duties as an LPN. It really is a shame the way you are portraying the LPN profession. I belong to a nursing agency and i have a full time job as a LPN. The agency ia always calling me to work in psych hospitals, med surg, acute floors. I respect the RN prfessional also. I have always gotten along well my fellow RN. I cannot understand why the state boards of nursing have not thought of grandfathering the experienced LPN to at least adn. This was my heartfelt response to this previous message. Good Luck to all the hardworking LPNS that set up the y-tubing for blood to be administers so the RN only has to plug it into tthe iv line. This is a shame the way the LPN is being portrayed. Signed a hard working LPN who has loved her job for 42 years.
    Thank you for your service and all your dedication and hard work :kiss
  13. by   Q.
    Quote from FroggysMom
    Unfortunately, there are those out there who feel that a level of education is what defines the "professional" rather than how we approach and perform our jobs.
    In my opinion, they both go hand in hand, but defining a "professional" has two tiers to it, I think: one of them being how one conducts oneself, the other being meeting the standards of performing AS one, for example, attaining the necessary licensure and education.

    But my question is, that no one really ever answers, is why do we think it's perfectly acceptable for OTHER professions, that we often place ourselves on par with btw, to have standards of education that everyone meets, but for us, it's just "different" and should always be different because we say so.

    Tell me, what if we had physicians quibbling (and they DID quibble, only before our time) over obtaining a bachelor's at all in order to get into medical school?

    What if physicians were quibbling about the competitiveness of getting INTO medical school, or quibbling about how many medical schools were within 10 miles of their home and this was their argument for NOT having the standards be: Bachelor's degree, 4 years medical school, 4 years residency?

    For me, the argument isn't about individual people's worth or choices. But I really think that nursing DOES need to "jump on the bandwagon" before we get left behind even further than we already are. Our counterparts in healthcare have continually raised the bar for their professional standards, yet nursing continues to fight it and insist they are different and exclusive.

    Nursing is so much more than just caring about people and performing tasks. Nursing is SO much more than just conducting oneself in a proper manner and doing a good job.
    Last edit by Q. on Dec 28, '05

close