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nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next



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No. 10
Old Feb 22, 2009, 10:12 PM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
Originally Posted by nursbee04 View Post
O2 sat alone is not enough to decide if the pt is okay. What were his ABGs? If the pt was groggy its very possible it could have been from elevated CO2 or hypoxia or both. If CO2 is a problem, the NRB only makes it worse, and the worsening decline in LOC/resp drive makes the hypoxemia worse.

I would have went from the NRB to a Venti Mask, titrated down the venti mask until I could put on a NC.
If I was unable to titrate down from the NRB to a Venti, I would have put the patient on Bipap.

If the problem was elevated CO2, I would have went straight to bipap. Then, if the ABG didn't improve after Bipap, we would intubate in my unit.
I agree.

I actually had a patient the other day in clinicals with great saturation on a FiO2 40% 12/5 BiPAP we tried to wean off. The patient's sats would tank to the low 80's just by switching to FiO2 40% Venturi, but would be perfect with a 100% NRB. We settled for continuing the BiPAP.
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No. 11
from luce2008
Old Feb 22, 2009, 10:20 PM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
Thank you very much NurseBee04, very informative.
there was not ABG done after the NRB started. I should have push the doc to draw ABG.
I understand that NRB delivers high concentation of O2, but not clear about it will worsen elevatd CO2. Please explain and thank you.
By the way I love the relaxed kitten. I have 500 piece puzzle which drives me nut but still love it.
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No. 12
from luce2008
Old Feb 22, 2009, 11:03 PM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
thanks NurseBee04. very informative.
no ABG done after NRB applied. I should push doc have it done. I have learned. thanks.
I understand that NRB delivers highest concentration O2, but not clear about it will worsen elevated CO2. Could you explain? Thank you.
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No. 13
Old Feb 27, 2009, 05:12 PM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
Hi...to my knowledge there is NO time restriction on non rebreathers. They can stay on it till...whenever. But the next step is not always intubation...they could go on cpap/bipap. And ....it is different to kinda freak out if the pt is on a NRB for 15 hours and they are satting 78....but the guy was in the high 90's. Another thing is....look at your CLINICAL pic of your pt.
1. Are they confused? or loc diff than baseline.
2. How fast are they breathing?
3. What is their sats?

Alot of people are co2 retainers and live in the 80's. So you dont neccessarily slap a NRB on them...you look at their clinical pic they are presenting with.Look at that resp rate, are they working hard? are they lethargic? or are they alert? another thing ......I always look at my clinical pic of my pt FIRST.....dont monitor your monitor....monitor your patient. Sats in the 80's ( high 80's ) may be their norm. ......
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No. 14
Old Mar 07, 2009, 08:20 AM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
I would have suggested getting some blood gasses drawn. The Dr ordering some breathing treatments. If he consistently stayed in the mid to high 90's on the NRB I would have started trying to get him on less O2. First get him on a rebreather mask. You can do this by simply popping out the white covers on the holes on the NRB. I believe it takes it from 100% O2 down to something like 75%. After that a high flow nasal canula. Then if he tolerates that a regular nasal canula. Slowly titrating down from each. I'm an RN, not a Respiratory Therapist, but I used to work in a hospital were we didn't have an RT unless the patient was going down the toilet. I could call and ask for their advice and learned a lot having to do it on my own. We also gave our own breathing treatments and had them ordered PRN on most patients. I would defidently have given one to this guy to try to get him opened up. He really should have been getting them anyway with pneumonia.

Did they try putting him on lower O2 before slapping the NRB on??
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No. 15
from redfoxLPN
Old Mar 08, 2009, 07:56 AM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
I had a patient the other day that prier shift pur on NRB. Then complained they are very confused, and climbing out of bed. My midinght assessment yes patient on NRB and very confused, Ox 100%. replacen with 5L O2 via NC. Pt calmbed down within minetes, and stayed in bed all night. Titrated down to 2.5L by 7AM, Ox at 94%. When MD asked about patient I explainded what I did he thanked me. Later found out he "chewed" evening for putting on NRB. Patient definetly CO2 retainer. MD wrote order to maintaine Ox at 91%.
I learned somethine that night. Hope to never forget it.
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No. 16
from luce2008
Old Mar 10, 2009, 07:58 AM

Lightbulb Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
Originally Posted by MelissaPhoographerRN View Post
We also gave our own breathing treatments and had them ordered PRN on most patients.
Did they try putting him on lower O2 before slapping the NRB on??
when you say breatheing treatments, do you mean nebulizer treatmet? He was having the treatment, that was time the resp. therapist took of the NRB and his O2 sat drop to low 80, and I had to connected the nebulizer to 8L O2 for the treatment, maintain it high 80-low 90%.
He was not COPD.
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No. 17
from SALLYRNRRT
Old Mar 19, 2009, 08:20 PM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
Originally Posted by luce2008 View Post
I need your help about the nonbreather.

This is the Pt's history: an eldrely pt admitted for pneumonia. He was doing fine, A&Ox2, no fever, bed resting, on PEG feeding and 3-4 IV antibiotics. He went for sacral pressure ulce debridement at noon, and around 4 pm he became totally disoriented, eye open for pain, SOB, O2 sat down to 87%. They doc. and day nurse put him on nonrebreather with O2 95-98% and I got him at 7 pm. PEG eeding was D/Ced, dressing was changed which with no bleeding. The only thing was the nonrebreather and slightly labored breathing I thought was problem. I talked to the doc. and called the RN from RRT. They all said O2 sat was fine leave him alone, "call me if he needs to be intubated," the doc said. I did chest pts and suctions, and he was on that nonrebeather with O2 about 95-97%, whenever it was removed O2 will go down to low 80. I knew non rebreather was for short time use, but don't know how short is short.

A Different nurse came for my district for day shift. When he heard the pt was on nonrebreather for about 15 hours, and next step would intubation, he was very angry.

My questions are: how long usually nonbreather used for pts; what else I, as nurse, can do to void nonrebreather or intubation for pt like this; what I can suggest doc to do.

Thank you in advence for your help and sharing you knowledge.
Well being a RN & a RRT both, possibly I can help, non rebreather at high FIO2 is usually short term use, sometimes 24hr, less ususally a few hrs......... ABGs? re do Current Chest Xray, when the fio2 could not be reduced as you said his sat% dropped.. WE need to remember pulse oximetry readings are dependent upon so many different things, they are not meant to be the single critical monitoring decision, prefussion etc. may reflect a lower sat. ........ What were his lung sounds, WHAT DID HE LOOK LIKE??? Those are things I would have pursued......
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No. 18
from SALLYRNRRT
Old Mar 19, 2009, 08:25 PM

Default Re: nonrebreather-how long, and what should be next
Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
One can suffer both neurological and pulmonary effects from oxygen toxicity, but no clear threshold of duration for this exists, to the best of my knowledge.

For reference, the astronauts aboard Gemini and Apollo were kept in an 100% oxygen environment for up to a week and a half without any problems, however, it was at a pressure much lower than atmospheric.

--

The bigger problem is the NRB is just there to stabilize a patient until definitive treatment is established. It's a stop-gap measure at best. What did this guy's gasses look like?

The high FI02 > 60%, can demonstrate the toxic effects......... in a few as 72 hours....We depend on O2 sats too much, what are the gases like?? What is the patient like? lungs sounds etc..........
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