To all nurses planning to give the H1N1 vaccine to pregnant women - page 3

by ozoneranger 7,575 Views | 27 Comments

just a note for those looking to download the article. the embargo period was officially passed this morning (9/30) and the article has officially been released by neurotoxicology today, but there appears to be a delay in the... Read More


  1. 0
    the test pool is too small.

    the sample is sufficiently large for a study of this type, especially since only two exposure groups were studied. in addition, all 20 macaques described were male, eliminating any confounding effect of gender and further raising the statistical power of the sample.


    where are the adjustments for gestational age?

    the authors are careful to point out several limitations of their analysis. according to the paper, “our study design does not enable us to determine whether it is the vaccine per se, the exposure to [thimerosal], or a combination of both that is causing the observed effects. “ in addition, the effects appear in some reflexes to be mediated by other risk factors such as birth weight and gestational age, suggesting that vaccinating premature and/or low birth weight infants may create especially high risk. “infants of lower birth weight and gestational age were at greater risk” explained dr. laura hewitson of the university of pittsburgh, one of the principal investigators of the study. “the reflexes affected in this study are controlled by the brainstem, which regulates functions like heart rate, breathing, and intestinal activity, so these findings give us cause for concern, especially for low birth weight and pre-term infants who might be more susceptible to functional brain injury from this vaccine."





    what maternal and environmental factors were identified?

    the macaques were bred and housed at the primate nursery of the pittsburgh development center (pdc) at the university of pittsburgh, where the research team’s principal investigator, dr. laura hewitson, is a member of the faculty. the pdc is a part of the magee women’s research institute of the university of pittsburgh’s school of medicine


    how can it prove a problem with thimerasol when the recombivax is thimerasol free and has been for more than 5 years?

    while hepatitis b vaccines currently produced in the united states no longer contain thimerosal, the vast majority of american infants born during the 1990s received a vaccine formulation similar to the one the thirteen vaccinated macaques received. in addition, thimerosal-containing hbvs are still routinely administered to newborn infants in developing countries such as brazil. consequently, the finding that early exposure to potentially toxic vaccine formulations can cause significant neuro-developmental delays in primates has serious implications for vaccine safety management. these implications go far beyond the domestic hbv program and raise concerns about hbv formulations sold abroad as well as the domestic influenza vaccine program. most influenza vaccines, including the vaccines in the upcoming swine flu program, contain thimerosal and are routinely administered to pregnant women and infants.
  2. 0
    Quote from RuRnurse?
    1964...you may be a bit young to remember the real heyday of advertising, you have to go back about 20 more years to find the real gems. I used to collect old cigarette ads, the ones that ran in popular magazines, some featured guys in white with stethoscopes around their necks...and my own mother was warned against quitting while pregnant lest she "gain too much weight". They knew it wasn't good for you, but judged the possible negative effects to be less of a risk compared to whatever it was they were treating you for, pregnancy weight gain, nerves, fatigue, etc.
    Actually, taking a good look through popular vintage magazines can be very entertaining, it's amazing what kind of stuff used to be sold for 'health' reasons.
    I'm old enough for Medicare.
    I just quoted an article regarding the fact that since 1964 cigarette packages have had warnings such as:
    SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking by Pregnant Women May Result in Fetal Injury, Premature Birth, and Low Birth Weight.
    When pregnant with my 41 year old daughter it was known that smoking could harm the baby.
    That was more than thirty years ago.
    My mother quit smoking when pregnant with me and my sisters. This was more than sixty years ago.
    Women may have been told this but it was definitely more than thirty years ago.

    I have been a nurse longer than that and we learned to encourage all people not to smoke.
    THAT is a FACT.
  3. 3
    I am always concerned when someone appeals to authority to justify a particular position or point of view, in this case ozoneranger’s crusade against mercury. There is no doubt that mercury is toxic in its many forms. But justifying a tirade against H1N1 vaccinations for pregnant women by obliquely referencing a scientific paper is misleading, especially one dealing with a reconstituted HB vaccine. The title of the paper is “DELAYED ACQUISITION OF NEONATAL REFLEXES IN NEWBORN PRIMATES RECEIVING A THIMEROSAL-CONTAINING HEPATITIS B VACCINE: INFLUENCE OF GESTATIONAL AGE AND BIRTH WEIGHT”. The emphasis of this study is on the variation of gestational age and birth weight in relation to three neonatal reflexes among rhesus macaques. Link to full article: http://www.thoughtfulhouse.org/pr/hep-b-study.pdf

    Perhaps the most important statement in the article is:
    Our study design does not enable us to determine whether it is the vaccine per se, the exposure to Th [Thimerosal], or a combination of both, that is causing the observed effects.

    This thread ought to be about weighing the pros and cons of administering a novel H1N1 influenza vaccine to pregnant women in light of the high risks associated with novel H1N1 infection. It should not be a soap box for the anti-mercury crowd to foment arguments here in the pandemic forum when the focus should be on helping nurses and other health care workers prepare for the growing second wave of this pandemic.
    Fiona59, HM2VikingRN, and herring_RN like this.
  4. 0
    Quote from Laidback Al
    I am always concerned when someone appeals to authority to justify a particular position or point of view, in this case ozoneranger’s crusade against mercury. There is no doubt that mercury is toxic in its many forms. But justifying a tirade against H1N1 vaccinations for pregnant women by obliquely referencing a scientific paper is misleading, especially one dealing with a reconstituted HB vaccine. The title of the paper is “DELAYED ACQUISITION OF NEONATAL REFLEXES IN NEWBORN PRIMATES RECEIVING A THIMEROSAL-CONTAINING HEPATITIS B VACCINE: INFLUENCE OF GESTATIONAL AGE AND BIRTH WEIGHT”. The emphasis of this study is on the variation of gestational age and birth weight in relation to three neonatal reflexes among rhesus macaques. Link to full article: http://www.thoughtfulhouse.org/pr/hep-b-study.pdf

    Perhaps the most important statement in the article is:

    This thread ought to be about weighing the pros and cons of administering a novel H1N1 influenza vaccine to pregnant women in light of the high risks associated with novel H1N1 infection. It should not be a soap box for the anti-mercury crowd to foment arguments here in the pandemic forum when the focus should be on helping nurses and other health care workers prepare for the growing second wave of this pandemic.



    I apologize. When I started this thread, the issue of informed consent was weighing heavy on my mind.
    Like the poster 'kids' I also have family members in the field of medical research, both in drug development & in environmental toxicology.

    As healthcare professionals, the vaccine debate is not new to us, we have access to information (and the clinical background) that most people simply don't have regarding these issues. Should you stand on a busy street & ask the general public if they were aware that most flu vaccines contain levels of mercury higher than the EPA deems acceptable, most, if not all of them would be quite surprised.

    Yes, we are in the middle of a pandemic, my intention was, and remains, to get this information out to fellow nurses, so that they might in turn, seek out vaccines that are thimerasol free, and administer them to pregnant women, & infants first. Without a blood/brain barrier, a genetically predisposed fetus is a sitting duck.

    People won't know they have a choice, unless we tell them.

    I think they have a right to know what they are being given. It's not my place to make that decision for them.


    I also remember all the cigarette ads in magazines, so here's to you, RuRnurse?



  5. 2
    Quote from ozoneranger
    The MMR is a live vaccine & never contained thimerasol to begin with.
    I did mis-type, the study was conducted after thimerasol was removed from all vaccines.

    Regardless, you didn't actually read the study, did you?

    Quote from ozoneranger
    The Cochrane Collaboration had this to say about Fombonne's paper regarding a review of the safety of the mmr:
    I'd love a link to your source.
    I searched http://www.cochrane.org/ using multiple terms including Fombonne and found nothing.
    The only entry The Cochrane Library http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0 has for Fombonne is a completely unrelated study.
    Quote from ozoneranger
    Insufficient controls were used. Although the study, which used 1,294 cases and 4,469 controls, had initially indicated that there would be ten controls per autism case, 594 cases had fewer than three controls, 72 cases had only one control and 25 had none at all. It was not explained why the study’s original protocols had been apparently disregarded.
    Again, you didn't read the study I linked, had you, you would know that the numbers you quoted there have no basis in the study. It really appears you're simply regurgitating stuff off some anti-vax website.

    Yes, Eric Fombonne is a Psychiatrist and an Epidemiologist.
    Both completely relevant and appropriate to an epidemiological study that reviewed and tabulated data from other sources. Dr. Fombonne's psychiatric specialty is autism and he is a well regarded expert in his field by the very people his work benefits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Fombonne

    Quote from ozoneranger
    Fombonne had been a paid adviser to the manufacturers of MMR in the then-impending 1,500-strong class action High Court case in the UK that alleged that MMR had precipitated childhood degeneration into autism.

    The wisdom of using a paid witness to the manufacturers, as defendants, in a central authorship role in a supposedly independent research paper......

    might be questioned....ya think?.
    I can see where someone who is dead set against the results of his research would see it that way, especially if you ignore the fact that the lawsuit took place a few years before Dr. Fombonne conducted and published his study.
    The plaintiff in the lawsuit you reference also paid the authors of "supposedly independent research" papers to testify for their side.
    The reality that parties on both sides of a lawsuit pay for expert witnesses.

    By the way, I did a google search of this sentence quoted in your post that you imply came from The Cochrane Collaboration:
    Quote from ozoneranger
    "The number and possible impact of biases in this study is so high that interpretation of the results is impossible."
    That statement is repeated made by Clifford Miller, the UK attorney who brought the class action suit mentioned above. http://www.cliffordmiller.com/.

    From a google search for the words "Clifford Miller vaccine lawsuit" since loosing the lawsuit it appears Mr. Miller has made a hobby of trying to discredit Dr. Fombonne without much success, except with people who will cling to anything that reinforces their belief that thimerasol or vaccines containing it or the manufacturers who used it are somehow at fault.

    Throughout your post(s) you claim sources without links or citations and many of what you've posted appears to be copy and pasted from elsewhere.
    Please link your sources - either you are making this stuff up yourself or you're violating the Terms of Service by failing to credit your sources.
    Fiona59 and Purple_Scrubs like this.
  6. 1
    "I did mis-type, the study was conducted after thimerasol was removed from all vaccines."

    Really. wow. Can you link us to the product inserts to prove that?

    Dr Fombonne has been an expert witness for vaccine manufacturers, but I guess that's not a conflict of interest.


    I suppose we could site study after study....conflict after conflict.....you in your corner, me in mine.

    However, my daughter called me while typing my reply....and in my excitement, I lost my post...

    My first grandchild is on his way, & I'm headed to the hospital to welcome him into the world.

    The vaccine debate will continue, no doubt.

    Peace be with you,

    I'm gonna be a grandma (squeal)
    Cherybaby likes this.
  7. 0
    Quote from CrunchRN
    Seriously y'all?

    I am not taking my practice advice from one annonymous internet nurse on this forum.

    I will weigh all info that comes out and then my practice will be dictated by the properly assigned authority in the matter.

    Oh no, wait, duh..........................sure - I will do just whatever the original poster who I never heard of told me to!:chuckle:chuckle:chuckle:chuckle


    I really don't see where there is room for sarcasm on this topic. It is for an exchange of ideas and information. What you do or don't do ultimately rests with you, of course, but it couldn't possibly hurt for you to hear both sides of the argument and make an informed decision.
  8. 0
    Dr. Bernadine Healy is the former head of the National Institutes of Health, and the most well-known medical voice yet to break with her colleagues on the vaccine-autism question.

    In an exclusive interview with CBS News, Healy said the question is still open.

    "I think that the public health officials have been too quick to dismiss the hypothesis as irrational," Healy said.

    "But public health officials have been saying they know, they've been implying to the public there's enough evidence and they know it's not causal," Attkisson said.

    "I think you can't say that," Healy said. "You can't say that."

    Healy goes on to say public health officials have intentionally avoided researching whether subsets of children are “susceptible” to vaccine side effects - afraid the answer will scare the public.

    "You're saying that public health officials have turned their back on a viable area of research largely because they're afraid of what might be found?" Attkisson asked.

    Healy said: "There is a completely expressed concern that they don't want to pursue a hypothesis because that hypothesis could be damaging to the public health community at large by scaring people. "First of all," Healy said, "I think the public’s smarter than that. The public values vaccines. But more importantly, I don’t think you should ever turn your back on any scientific hypothesis because you’re afraid of what it might show."

    As an example, Healy points to the existing vaccine court claims.

    CBS News has learned the government has paid more than 1,300 brain injury claims in vaccine court since 1988, but is not studying those cases or tracking how many of them resulted in autism.

    The branch of the government that handles vaccine court told CBS News: “Some children who have been compensated for vaccine injuries…may ultimately end up with autism or autistic symptoms, but we do not track cases on this basis.”

    "What we’re seeing in the bulk of the population: vaccines are safe," said Healy. "But there may be this susceptible group. The fact that there is concern, that you don’t want to know that susceptible group is a real disappointment to me. If you know that susceptible group, you can save those children. If you turn your back on the notion that there is a susceptible group… what can I say?"

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...rrentVideoInfo
    Last edit by ozoneranger on Oct 3, '09


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