US demand for Filipino nurses declining - educator - page 5

by pinoy_guy

12,714 Views | 76 Comments

us demand for filipino nurses declining - educator change in work attitude... i wonder if this is related to the nurses who got "fast track" bsns, all in less than 6 months. cgfns & uscis have to crack down on these... Read More


  1. 4
    Quote from crossbow
    how would those that have walked away, feel that it was they that were left to dry in the pipeline?
    i am passionate about the issue because i was in a similar situation: i got stuck in a "hiring pipeline."

    i was luckier than others because i learned about the "stop hiring" of the hospital at the start of the process.

    some acquaintances got far worse.

    they waited more or less 2 years, then got to the us embassy interview...only there was no interview.

    the interviewer told them to go home.

    later they learned that the us hospitals did not have jobs for them anymore.

    can you imagine the situation?

    they waited and planned their lives (including spouse & kids) on the planned emigration...only to learn that they have to start the entire process over.

    much later they learned from other friends in their ex-petitioning hospitals that the hospitals stopped petitioning because some of their filipino nurses went on vacation...and never returned to work.

    the petitioning hospitals learned that the nurses "jumped ship" to work at another hospital for higher salaries.

    the thing is, the petitioning hospital/agency is investing in a foreign rn.

    the petitioning hospital/agency will be fielding the money and resources to get the papers (green card) for the foreign rn, then to train the foreign rn. some agencies will even help the foreign rn get a us driver's license and find an apartment.

    these are all investments.

    now there is a shortage of rns in a lot of hospitals in the us...and the easiest way to get a usable rn is to pirate them from the petitioning hospitals.

    of course the pirating hospital can afford to pay higher rates--they did not invest in the paperwork and the training of the foreign rns.

    does this scenario sound familiar?

    now i'm going to share the transformation of some filipino rns i've talked to during the process.

    stage 1: excitement & joy
    they'll be so happy at getting $23 per hour.

    "can you imagine? $23 per hour! that's p1,081 per hour! $184 for 8 hours! p8,648 for 1 duty! i'm so happy! i'm so blessed! $47,840 in one year means i'll have p2,248,480 in one year without even doing ot! i'll be a millionaire!!!"
    stage 2: dissatisfaction (about the time they get their green cards)
    "the hospital is exploiting me! imagine, my co-workers are getting $25 per hour! that's $2 per hour! $16 per day! $4,160 per year! p195,520! the hospital is stealing from me!"
    and this is for a $2 difference.

    the standard, i think, is $5 per hour.

    $10,400 per year. p488,800.

    almost half a million pesos.

    but the hospital invests approximately this much (or more) in processing the papers and training the foreign rn.

    stage 3: self-justification and rationalization

    "i know my rights! this is a human rights violation! everybody has the right to work where he/she wants! i won't stand for this abuse of my human rights!"
    then the rns either jump ship, or "buy-out" the contract.

    for the [color="sienna"]ship jumpers, a lot of them had been lucky that the hospitals/agencies didn't go after them.

    previously.

    petitioning hospitals/agencies had wised up--they've started going after the prodigal rns. there's a counter-strategy from the prodigal rns when the hospitals/agencies come after them--the prodigal rns complain about "unsafe job practices" or some other reason.

    for the [color="sienna"]buy-outers, at least they have the integrity to acknowledge the work, time, and money the petitioniing hospital/agency did to get them to the us.

    it is still a loss for the petitioning hospital/agency though.

    petitioning for a foreign rn is part of the strategic planning of the hr department of a petitioning hospital/agency.

    for projected nurse-hours of work, they estimate the number of rns they'll need in the future.

    if a foreign rn "buys out" his/her contract, the petitioning hospital/agency is reimbursed for the costs of the paperwork and training, but there is a net loss as the hospital will have an unanticipated nursing shortage, and will be forced to use registry or travelling rns--to the tune of up to $75 per hour.

    that's $50 per hour more, $400 for 8 hours. $104,000 per year.

    just for the loss of 1 rn.

    it is not a "win-win situation."

    the other point was brought up in the court hearing of a celebrated case--the agency refused the rn's demand to buy out his contract because the uscis might think the agency is in the business of selling green cards. this can land the agency owner in prison.

    my point is, do the right thing.

    if you think the salary being offered is low, walk away.

    do not sign while planning to buy out the contract later.

    i wish these "rns" luck in looking for salary offers in the $50 per hour range--you'll need lots of it.

    it's vexing when i meet fresh graduates who brag that they're demanding $50 per hour starting salaries.

    jumping ship and buying out your contract only makes it harder for other rns to get to the us.
    moon_dust, suzanne4, Lorodz, and 1 other like this.
  2. 1
    bravo!! bravo!!! well put, pinoy guy, well said!!
    whatever happened to the professional that always honor a contract?

    just because one is getting $2 or $3 less than the one already working here that doesn't mean that the employer did not invest in time, money and effort in getting them.
    1. into the country
    2. settling them into the country

    besides, what $2 difference temporarily when your reputation as a professional is at stake?

    pinoy guy, don't the ship jumpers realize that when they first come into the country can be compared to going into someone else's house and invited to dinner for the first time? they are considered guests in that house and they should act accordingly. they will be squeezing in with the usual other people in that dining table or even depriving some of their usual spot on the table. jumping ship would be like
    eating a sumptous meal at that table with your gracious hosts and then leaving without even saying goodbye?

    i guess professionalism is not taught in a professional school anymore.


    Quote from pinoy_guy
    i am passionate about the issue because i was in a similar situation: i got stuck in a "hiring pipeline."

    i was luckier than others because i learned about the "stop hiring" of the hospital at the start of the process.

    some acquaintances got far worse.

    they waited more or less 2 years, then got to the us embassy interview...only there was no interview.

    the interviewer told them to go home.

    later they learned that the us hospitals did not have jobs for them anymore.

    can you imagine the situation?

    they waited and planned their lives (including spouse & kids) on the planned emigration...only to learn that they have to start the entire process over.

    much later they learned from other friends in their ex-petitioning hospitals that the hospitals stopped petitioning because some of their filipino nurses went on vacation...and never returned to work.

    the petitioning hospitals learned that the nurses "jumped ship" to work at another hospital for higher salaries.

    the thing is, the petitioning hospital/agency is investing in a foreign rn.

    the petitioning hospital/agency will be fielding the money and resources to get the papers (green card) for the foreign rn, then to train the foreign rn. some agencies will even help the foreign rn get a us driver's license and find an apartment.

    these are all investments.

    now there is a shortage of rns in a lot of hospitals in the us...and the easiest way to get a usable rn is to pirate them from the petitioning hospitals.

    of course the pirating hospital can afford to pay higher rates--they did not invest in the paperwork and the training of the foreign rns.

    does this scenario sound familiar?

    now i'm going to share the transformation of some filipino rns i've talked to during the process.





    and this is for a $2 difference.

    the standard, i think, is $5 per hour.

    $10,400 per year. p488,800.

    almost half a million pesos.

    but the hospital invests approximately this much (or more) in processing the papers and training the foreign rn.



    then the rns either jump ship, or "buy-out" the contract.

    for the ship jumpers, a lot of them had been lucky that the hospitals/agencies didn't go after them.

    previously.

    petitioning hospitals/agencies had wised up--they've started going after the prodigal rns. there's a counter-strategy from the prodigal rns when the hospitals/agencies come after them--the prodigal rns complain about "unsafe job practices" or some other reason.

    for the buy-outers, at least they have the integrity to acknowledge the work, time, and money the petitioniing hospital/agency did to get them to the us.

    it is still a loss for the petitioning hospital/agency though.

    petitioning for a foreign rn is part of the strategic planning of the hr department of a petitioning hospital/agency.

    for projected nurse-hours of work, they estimate the number of rns they'll need in the future.

    if a foreign rn "buys out" his/her contract, the petitioning hospital/agency is reimbursed for the costs of the paperwork and training, but there is a net loss as the hospital will have an unanticipated nursing shortage, and will be forced to use registry or travelling rns--to the tune of up to $75 per hour.

    that's $50 per hour more, $400 for 8 hours. $104,000 per year.

    just for the loss of 1 rn.

    it is not a "win-win situation."

    the other point was brought up in the court hearing of a celebrated case--the agency refused the rn's demand to buy out his contract because the uscis might think the agency is in the business of selling green cards. this can land the agency owner in prison.

    my point is, do the right thing.

    if you think the salary being offered is low, walk away.

    do not sign while planning to buy out the contract later.

    i wish these "rns" luck in looking for salary offers in the $50 per hour range--you'll need lots of it.

    it's vexing when i meet fresh graduates who brag that they're demanding $50 per hour starting salaries.

    jumping ship and buying out your contract only makes it harder for other rns to get to the us.
    suzanne4 likes this.
  3. 0
    very well put. thank you.

    Quote from pinoy_guy
    i am passionate about the issue because i was in a similar situation: i got stuck in a "hiring pipeline."

    i was luckier than others because i learned about the "stop hiring" of the hospital at the start of the process.

    some acquaintances got far worse.

    they waited more or less 2 years, then got to the us embassy interview...only there was no interview.

    the interviewer told them to go home.

    later they learned that the us hospitals did not have jobs for them anymore.

    can you imagine the situation?

    they waited and planned their lives (including spouse & kids) on the planned emigration...only to learn that they have to start the entire process over.

    much later they learned from other friends in their ex-petitioning hospitals that the hospitals stopped petitioning because some of their filipino nurses went on vacation...and never returned to work.

    the petitioning hospitals learned that the nurses "jumped ship" to work at another hospital for higher salaries.

    the thing is, the petitioning hospital/agency is investing in a foreign rn.

    the petitioning hospital/agency will be fielding the money and resources to get the papers (green card) for the foreign rn, then to train the foreign rn. some agencies will even help the foreign rn get a us driver's license and find an apartment.

    these are all investments.

    now there is a shortage of rns in a lot of hospitals in the us...and the easiest way to get a usable rn is to pirate them from the petitioning hospitals.

    of course the pirating hospital can afford to pay higher rates--they did not invest in the paperwork and the training of the foreign rns.

    does this scenario sound familiar?

    now i'm going to share the transformation of some filipino rns i've talked to during the process.





    and this is for a $2 difference.

    the standard, i think, is $5 per hour.

    $10,400 per year. p488,800.

    almost half a million pesos.

    but the hospital invests approximately this much (or more) in processing the papers and training the foreign rn.



    then the rns either jump ship, or "buy-out" the contract.

    for the ship jumpers, a lot of them had been lucky that the hospitals/agencies didn't go after them.

    previously.

    petitioning hospitals/agencies had wised up--they've started going after the prodigal rns. there's a counter-strategy from the prodigal rns when the hospitals/agencies come after them--the prodigal rns complain about "unsafe job practices" or some other reason.

    for the buy-outers, at least they have the integrity to acknowledge the work, time, and money the petitioniing hospital/agency did to get them to the us.

    it is still a loss for the petitioning hospital/agency though.

    petitioning for a foreign rn is part of the strategic planning of the hr department of a petitioning hospital/agency.

    for projected nurse-hours of work, they estimate the number of rns they'll need in the future.

    if a foreign rn "buys out" his/her contract, the petitioning hospital/agency is reimbursed for the costs of the paperwork and training, but there is a net loss as the hospital will have an unanticipated nursing shortage, and will be forced to use registry or travelling rns--to the tune of up to $75 per hour.

    that's $50 per hour more, $400 for 8 hours. $104,000 per year.

    just for the loss of 1 rn.

    it is not a "win-win situation."

    the other point was brought up in the court hearing of a celebrated case--the agency refused the rn's demand to buy out his contract because the uscis might think the agency is in the business of selling green cards. this can land the agency owner in prison.

    my point is, do the right thing.

    if you think the salary being offered is low, walk away.

    do not sign while planning to buy out the contract later.

    i wish these "rns" luck in looking for salary offers in the $50 per hour range--you'll need lots of it.

    it's vexing when i meet fresh graduates who brag that they're demanding $50 per hour starting salaries.

    jumping ship and buying out your contract only makes it harder for other rns to get to the us.
  4. 0
    yah, there are lots of filipinos here who didn't finish their contract for some reasons ( others have good reasons but others have not ) and we can't blame this hospitals not to hire filipino nurses anymore because it's not a joke to petition 1 nurse it is very costly for them according to my employer they paid $8,000 or more for 1 nurse only how about if they have families... But I am wondering why they can do this, wherein during our embassy interview we have to sign a waiver i guess, that we need to proceed and work to the agency or hospital who petitined us if not we can be deported...
  5. 0
    Quote from joe li
    it is only a win situation for the nurse who "bought" a green card by using the hospital and the agency.
    exactly.


    Quote from joe li
    we have not had many people walk away/fail their probationary period, but of those who did walk they did so on day one, and it becomes painfully obvious that they never intended to work at the client; paying the penalty was also not a problem for some reason either.
    suzanne mentioned something about this in a few of her posts. from the nyc case, it was mentioned that the rn wanted out of the contract as soon as he set foot on us soil.


    Quote from joe li
    those that did not work out otherwise were generally for attitude and not so much experience, language or otherwise.
    can you elaborate on the attitude?


    Quote from joe li
    keep in mind these are direct hires at union facilities in nyc so the pay, conditions etc. are comparable to anywhere else in the area and often much higher.
    i would advise rns to work in hospitals with unions.

    speaking from experience.


    Quote from joe li
    and make no mistake, when a filipino or a korean (for example) creates such a situation, that feeling does extend to others of similary citizenship...unfortunate as it may be.
    agree.
  6. 2
    Quote from crossbow
    whatever happened to the professional that always honor a contract?
    to be objective, there are legitimate cases wherein rns are exploited. for example, being put in a med tele unit with 1:4 ratio and being given 6 patients.

    however, if the rn signs a contract for ltc facility with the understanding that he/she will be taking care of 10 to 15 patients, i don't think he/she can use that ratio as reason to jump ship when he/she knew the ratio even before leaving philippine soil.


    Quote from crossbow
    just because one is getting $2 or $3 less than the one already working here that doesn't mean that the employer did not invest in time, money and effort in getting them.
    1. into the country
    2. settling them into the country
    there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    that kind of service has to be paid, and $2 to $3 per hour for 1 to 2 years is, in my opinion, a good trade off.

    if the rn didn't sign that contract, there's little chance for him/her to get to the us any other way.


    Quote from crossbow
    besides, what $2 difference temporarily when your reputation as a professional is at stake?
    i usually hear "i have to think about my future." as the rationale for breaking contracts.


    Quote from crossbow
    pinoy guy, don't the ship jumpers realize that when they first come into the country can be compared to going into someone else's house and invited to dinner for the first time? they are considered guests in that house and they should act accordingly. they will be squeezing in with the usual other people in that dining table or even depriving some of their usual spot on the table. jumping ship would be like
    eating a sumptous meal at that table with your gracious hosts and then leaving without even saying goodbye?
    that's an apt analogy, but sadly the ship jumpers seem to think they're justified in grabbing and running.


    Quote from crossbow
    i guess professionalism is not taught in a professional school anymore.
    i taught it.

    the thing is, there are lots of nursing students who do not have the heart of a nurse.

    they have the heart for the dollar, and it taints everything.


    Quote from crumvy
    but i am wondering why they can do this, wherein during our embassy interview we have to sign a waiver i guess, that we need to proceed and work to the agency or hospital who petitined us if not we can be deported...
    exactly.

    they should start with the deporting to show they're serious.

    if there's intent to defraud, the green card was obtained on false premises.
    RNHawaii34 and suzanne4 like this.
  7. 1
    my point is, Do The Right Thing.

    if you think the Salary being offered is low, walk away.

    do not sign while planning to Buy Out the Contract later.
    ----------------
    thanks, pinoy_guy, for posting a dreadful truth, yet, very useful.

    i'm blown away by how many pinoy rns lose sense of what is right when they start earning dollars. their judgment blunts with faulty comparisons (of course one gets lesser pay due to the facility's sponsorship/petitioning efforts..nothing's for free.) all of a sudden, they think of themselves as hapless victims all in the name of $3 dollars less pay!

    can we be more realistic? if you get paid in dollars, you also spend in dollars so converting to pesos is not necessarily the smartest way to decide if you're getting enough. the u.s. is not paradise or an escape from what the philippines can (or cannot) offer. people work hard to earn their pay. you can also get conned here and like anywhere, not all of those sharks get caught. a signed contract is BINDING so it is BEST to CLEAR YOUR MIND before sigining it. Be extra CAREFUL, take time to study, seek information and learn from those in the know. Don't let your emotions and your preconceived notions get the best of you.
    Last edit by nrswnabee on Sep 4, '07
    suzanne4 likes this.
  8. 0
    Average fee that an agency takes is $5 per hour USand this a very well known fact. Contracts are a legally binding document and there are penalty fees that need to be paid when the nurse walks.

    If the nurse did their homework before they got so happy that an agency was interested in them, then they would not be any issues at all. No agency works for free, they have to get their money one way or another.

    And average number of patients that a nurse cares for in the LTC setting is 30 to 60, not what is posted above. They only wish for that ratio.
  9. 2
    i usually hear "i have to think about my future." as the rationale for breaking contracts.

    "i have to think of my future" is what they usually say. it does not apply to the work ethic of a nursing professional or any professional for that matter. (besides, what happens to their future if they are sent back anyway? just stating the reality.) the reason one is staying to finish the contract is..........thinking about the future.

    to be objective, there are legitimate cases wherein rns are exploited. for example, being put in a med tele unit with 1:4 ratio and being given 6 patients.

    however, if the rn signs a contract for ltc facility with the understanding that he/she will be taking care of 10 to 15 patients, i don't think he/she can use that ratio as reason to jump ship when he/she knew the ratio even before leaving philippine soil.


    1:4 ratio!! man i'd die for a 1:4 ratio!!! my med/surg tele unit has 1:7 or 1:8 ratio. (pinoy guy, the nurse to patient ratio is the reality of us health care. 1:6 ratio isnt exploitation for me...its a blessing!!)

    these new nurses who plan to walk away should:

    1. realize that all over the country everyone is grappling with increased nurse to patient ratio. (thats the effect of managed care system that the us has adopted for its health care model.) the unions have taken it up in their collective bargaining agreement. nursing management has admitted to this problem. nursing associations have batted for it and are still taking up the cudgels in congress and senate.
    2. remember, what was their nurse to patient ratio in the pi? the best one so far on a med floor is at the phc with 1:6. is that considered exploitation for these new ones? most of the hospitals in the pi used to practice team nursing. if one shifts to primary nursing, one will find it easier than team nursing.

    that's an apt analogy, but sadly the ship jumpers seem to think they're justified in grabbing and running.

    no imho, once the newbies arrive here, they want it easier.

    its not going to be easier!!! this is the reason why the united states is recruiting from outside its borders...because nursing here is not easier. the new nurses are supposed to be the solution and not the problem on top of a bigger problem.

    to new nurses who have just arrived:
    1. please bear in mind what the other nurses who have been working in your unit think about you before you guys jump ship.
    2. before you think of yourselves as a valuable commodity, think first if you can cut it in your unit before transferring to other units because chances are the units or hospitals that you are planning to transfer to, may have the worse nurse retention problems or working conditions than the ones that you are in now.
    RNHawaii34 and moon_dust like this.
  10. 0
    Quote from pinoy_guy
    can you elaborate on the attitude?
    pinoy guy,

    i was referring to general personal characteristics outside of education, professional training etc., such as having a bossy attitude, inability to work well with others or follow instructions, having a demanding and selfish nature, etc. the kind of characteristics that can get anyone let go if it rises to an intolerable level, shich is probably is given the option of having one less nurse to help the team.


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