RPNs/LPNs vs. RNs - page 4
I know this has probably been discussed a fair amount on this forum, but as a RPN/LPN that is currently bridging to become a RN, I wanted to share my experiences, questions, and conclusions about the... Read More
Jun 14, '10 by ajaxgirlQuote from Fiona59why would you expect them to consult with RPN's who are done school? Why on Earth?Actually there are three types of nursing professionals in Canada (the practical nurse, psychiatric nurse and registered nurse).
Very little (if any) consultation has been with actual working nurses on how their eduation should change. The Registered Psychiatric Nurses (RPN) are being told their education has to become a degree programme to fall in line with the RN education. This has led to a scramble to get into the Psychiatric Nursing field because not all students can afford four years at University. There are some fantastic RPNs working the surgical and medical units in my hospital (their education allows for experiences in all areas of care but their primary focus is on Mental Health).
Nobody consulted the working RPNs to see if they felt their patients would be better served by a degree based nurse.
The provincial colleges very rarely consult their membership on how we feel that our next generation should be educated. I remember when the Practical Nursing programme was changed to include all the first year university Arts courses. Nobody consulted with the working nurses. The strange thing was that many working LPNs already had these courses under their belt prior to taking their nursing education. The new grads are no different from the "old" grads, they just have a bigger student loan.
For the BScN grads, what we constantly see in the workplace is new grads that are very unsure of themselves and their skills. They don't spend enough time on the units learning their craft/trade. When we precept the university students, we have to virtually drag them into rooms for the hands on stuff (yes, I know you've already done a this procedure once and had it checked off BUT the more often you do it, the easier it becomes). They have no experience of working shifts because most clinicals are over by 22hr. So finding that first job and facing reality becomes a major slap in the face.
Profiles of kb14 and a couple of the other posters don't give us much info on where they are in their nursing career. But once they've walked a few hundred shifts in our white shoes, maybe they will understand where the "older generation" of nurses are coming from.
The average nurse will never go into management or do research. Those spots are few and far between. Instead they will hospital nurse until burnout, retirement or a better non-nursing opportunity hits them in the face.
WOW, your last paragraph is crazy.
I have my BScN and yes I did OR nursing for years. Now, I have a very cushy job doing case management. There are tons of that are not hands on. Many many RN's do them.
This is why I got my degree. It will be YOU, the hands on nurse who burns out. Not the one with the BSCN.
Jun 14, '10 by clemmm78So what I'm reading is that my three years of college to get my RN isn't worth any more than the RNA (registered nursing assistant here in Quebec) who went to a two-year technical program. Then why on earth would anyone bother to go for the longer program if they can get the same place with the shorter one? Seriously.
When I began nursing, when the dinosaurs roamed but after hospital schools, there was a clear distinction between RNAs and RNs. The RNAs were truly assistants. They could do many things, like take vital signs, care for patients who weren't acutely ill, and so on. They could not give medications, couldn't assess, couldn't start IVs, etc. Now, they can do all that (except assess) so now how should I feel? If you can do everything I can do, why bother hiring me? That's what is going too happen.
Facilities will know they can hire X number of LPNs, RNAs, or whatever the term is in the province and pay them less than they would pay the RNs. You haven't gotten any further ahead. in fact, you're saving them a ton of money.
Jun 14, '10 by Fiona59Vancouver Vocational Institute has been training PNs since 1948 and inthe 1970s that is the name they were known by: Practical Nurses.
In Western Canada RPN is the term for a Registered Psychiatric Nurse.
Traditionally they have been educated to the diploma level. In the last couple of years there has been comments in the media about making it a degree. That is why I say than none of the working RPNs have been consulted in the change in their education.
People need to cease thinking that nursing in Canada revolves around Ontario and its terminology.
And yes, I've met more than a few BScNs over the year who burnt out and left the profession. Jobs and their availability vary from province to province. The "cushy" jobs in Alberta go by seniority and the average BScN just doesn't have enough seniority to land one.
Jun 15, '10 by kb14I like how I’m becoming the antagonist in this forum just because I disagree with most of the participants lol. Anyway, I just want to ask a question—if the moderator wants to turn this into a separate thread, then do so—but what is so threatening about new RNs (BScN graduates)? Now before you argue that you do not feel threaten I would like to point out that if you did not feel this is case then the anxiety, and interpersonal conflict between new RNs and other nurses would not exist. The reason why individuals go on the defense (in any type of conflict) is because they feel that the opposing side is threatening their self-worth. Not once did I ever claimed that new RNs are better than other nurses, in fact I asked for other nurses to be supportive rather than be scornful. New RNs should not be the scapegoats just because the deciding body (i.e., nursing colleges) made the “unfavourable” (to some) rules.
"People need to cease thinking that nursing in Canada revolves around Ontario and its terminology." I only speak for what I know of my province, I'm sorry if that bothers you. I will endeavor to learn more about the different terminologies in hopes that I become more inclusive.
"And yes, I've met more than a few BScNs over the year who burnt out and left the profession." And I'm sure there are equal amounts of BScN graduates that stayed in the profession as well. BScN grads are not an homogenous group. We all have different ways to cope with stress.
"So what I'm reading is that my three years of college to get my RN isn't worth any more than the RNA (registered nursing assistant here in Quebec) who went to a two-year technical program." As I've stressed numerous times in my posts, all I contend is that there is a DIFFERENCE... I'm not questioning your worth or competence. In fact, I praise you for your experience, thank you for paving the way for future generations. I like how people nitpick certain part of my posts without really understanding the whole picture.
Jun 15, '10 by NotReady4PrimeTime, RN Senior ModeratorQuote from kb14"The moderator" closed this thread for a cooling-off period due to the antagonisitic personal attacks that were being made. The Terms of Service at allnurses.com state:I like how I'm becoming the antagonist in this forum just because I disagree with most of the participants lol. Anyway, I just want to ask a question--if the moderator wants to turn this into a separate thread, then do so
Disagreements with allnurses.com Policies or Staff Decisions
You agree not to argue about allnurses.com policies or moderating decisions in the public forums. If you disagree with a policy or a decision, you may respectfully post your comments in private in the Admin Help Desk where only you and the administration can see the conversation. You will not attempt to petition the website owner through the use of posts, polls, emails, PMs or any other method found on the allnurses.com website.
Disabling/editing of posts/users:
The allnurses.com staff reserves the right to edit/remove the posts and/or disable the account of any member who does not comply with these community guidelines or any reason deemed appropriate by the administration for the good of the community and its safety. Requests for removal will entail removing personal data, location, avatar, etc,. to protect the privacy of the person but the member account will remain intact because of the nature of the threading of posts within the database.
Freedom of Speech?
Although the constitution of the US guarantees that "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech", allnurses.com is not Congress. Freedom of speech rights do not extend to this privately owned website. The TOS/Guidelines of this website governs the behaviors and activities of the members. If you choose not to follow the guidelines agreed to during registration, the result is a disabling of your account.
We promote the idea of lively debate. This means you are free to disagree with anyone on any type of subject matter as long as your criticism is constructive and polite.
Our first priority is to the members that have come here because of the flame-free atmosphere we provide. There is a zero-tolerance policy here against personal attacks. We will not tolerate anyone insulting another individual's opinion nor name calling and will BAN repeat offenders.
How to Handle Personal Attacks or Objectionable Material
We are the largest Nursing Discussion Forum on the Internet. We are dealing with more than 420,000 members with and an average of 2,200 posts per day. When you grow to a bulletin board of this size, it becomes more difficult to moderate. Presently, we have more than 20 volunteer moderators and admin staff who monitor this board periodically. They are here to help -- please feel free to contact them with any problems you may have. On the other hand, they have been instructed to enforce our zero-tolerance policy. Our biggest concern here is the quality of membership not the quantity. We have no problem removing any individual who disrupts this bulletin board.
If you are ever in a position where you feel that you have been personally attacked, do not respond to that attack. Please report the post by clicking the red triangle link found on each post. Along with the report please submit your comments as to why you are reporting the post. The staff will be alerted and will act on the report. Please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.
Let the staff deal with the problem, if you respond to an attack you may find yourself in violation of our TOS.
Hate Speech and Inappropriate Generalizations
It is important to remember that this bulletin board reaches out to nurses and other readers all over the world. Our call is to be supportive, not divisive. Because of this, discrimination, racial vilification and offensive generalizations targeting people of other races, religions and/or nationalities will not be tolerated.
"The moderator" was acting within those parameters and will do so again if this thread once again becomes a flame-fest.
Jun 15, '10 by rantQuote from Fiona59I feel a little saddened by this post.Got to love students. They are so idealistic.
Fiona, I can -- within an intellectual realm only -- understand your frustration with the students/new graduates that you work with. I can imagine their newness, percieved unprepardness, and insecurity must become very old and tiring, fast. It is only through the goodness of the older, more experienced nurses that we can get through an hour, let alone a shift. I owe my (very small) success to nurses like these. Without them, I would be dead in the water, long ago.
I can conceptualize that the unexperienced nurses are frustrating to deal with. However, we are truly doing the best we can with what we have. We don't have the years of experience behind us that you do. Often, we don't have the wisdom of thought to think ourselves through tough situations. We need to rely on you to make it work. So when you call us idealistic, you are very right. Because all we have, in the beginning, are our ideas.
Jun 15, '10 by linzzI think with new grads, the frustration in not with lack of knowledge, but just that a very few(not all) students are making it difficult for those students who really want to learn and fit in with the unit.
The other issue is understaffing which happens often and it leaves nurses just plain tired and frustrated with everything.
To end on a positive note, there are many nurses that love to teach and take the time to do it. Many of these types of nurses are on this board which makes it a valuable resource for students and experienced nurses alike.
Jun 16, '10 by OgopogoLPNI don't understand what is being argued about here...
New grad BScNs are not as good as experienced LPNs? Nope, I disagree
Experienced LPNs are better than new grad BScNs? Nope, I disagree as well
How about each classification and experience level brings it's own pros and cons to the floor. Nurses need to work together both for policies and for the betterment of patients. Arguing about who is better is so counterproductive.
Jun 16, '10 by Fiona59Rant: I'm replying here because I'm not sure if you can access PM yet.
What I meant is students who are still in their classrooms are so idealistic. I was even one once. They tend to believe what their instructors tell them. They often (unless they have worked as an NA before or during nursing school) have no basis for reality. They come onto units vowing to never take shortcuts, never have an off day, etc. Many believe that they will have the pick of the job market. There is very little educational time spent to the realities of the union system and seniority and how it affects what job will be open to them.
Most of us have had the "perfect nurse" arrive as a student in a group only to observe them flounder, refuse to accept assistance when offered and then crash and burn. I had a "born" nurse in my intake. She crashed and burned on her med/surg rotation and walked away from nursing school.
Experience shapes us. When you complete your education you will have a better idea of what Linzz, Lori, and myself are trying to open your eyes to. After you have experienced the futility of dealing with your registration body and union then you will understand our attitude of fatalism. The ivory towers of academia and regulatory bodies takes away individual power.
Jun 16, '10 by linzzI wish that I had worked as nurse assistant during school because I was very shocked when I graduated with everything about nursing and it was so overwhelming. Maybe this was just my experience.
I do think that all schools just aren't able for many reasons to really tell new grads just how tough it will be, at the very least, until one gets some experience and seniority built up.
Jun 16, '10 by NotReady4PrimeTime, RN Senior ModeratorQuote from linzzIt's not just your experience. It's actually the most common experience of new nurses. One only has to read a few of the threads in the First Year After Nursing Licensure forum to see that. I've lost count of the number of times I've read comments like, "If I had known what nursing was really like..." and "Am I the only one who needs 2 hours for a med pass? Am I the only one who stays more than an hour after my shift to get my charting done? I don't know how the others do it." And "I thought there was a nursing shortage."I wish that I had worked as nurse assistant during school because I was very shocked when I graduated with everything about nursing and it was so overwhelming. Maybe this was just my experience.
Quote from linzzDo you think it's that they aren't able, or that they don't want to? After all, if they were truthful about working conditions and the realities of working on the front lines, they might scare off most of their students. The other thing is, most of them have been away from the realities of front line nursing for so long that they have no clue what it really looks like.I do think that all schools just aren't able for many reasons to really tell new grads just how tough it will be, at the very least, until one gets some experience and seniority built up.Last edit by NotReady4PrimeTime on Jun 16, '10
Sep 4, '10 by matiiriI'm a rn with higher national dip in mental health nursing and want to upgrade to bsn. Is there anybody or organization who can offer financial assistance to me.
Sep 4, '10 by NotReady4PrimeTime, RN Senior ModeratorQuote from matiiriAbout the only source of funding I can think of is the scholarship/bursary system administered by the Colleges of Registered Nurses in many of the provinces. Check with the schools where you think you might do your classes and see what kind of financial aid they offer.I'm a rn with higher national dip in mental health nursing and want to upgrade to bsn. Is there anybody or organization who can offer financial assistance to me.